Living Without Regrets: Can Embracing Mortality Change Everything? with Jodi Wellman | Ep. 067

Episode Transcript

CODY: 0:00

Welcome to the Mind Hack Podcast, the form where we delve into the intricacies of the human psyche to enhance self-improvement and optimize mindset, all aimed at empowering you to lead a more joyful and fulfilling existence. I'm Cody McLain, your guide on this journey of enlightenment, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Jody Wellman, an influential life and leadership coach, and the visionary behind 4,000 Mondays. This unique initiative is rooted in the powerful awareness of our limited time encouraging us to seize every moment with zeal. Jodi holds a master of applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania and has crafted her career around inspiring others to lead intentional lives that resonate deeply with personal fulfillment and purpose. She joins us to discuss her transformative new book. You Only Die once. How to make it to the end with no regrets. This compelling read invites us to embrace our mortality as the ultimate motivator to live with maximum vitality and joy, challenging us to live as what Jodi describes as an astonishingly alive life. So without further ado, please welcome Jody Wellman.

Jodi: 1:34

I find the idea of Death to be fascinating in an absurd way. Like in one of those ways where we're trying so hard to live these lives we love, as we, you know, darn well should. And that juxtaposed against this weirdly inevitable ending has always baffled me, thankfully, almost more with amusement than with existential dread. So I've always been interested. And then I had a couple of things in life, like my mom passed away in her late fifties and that was a real. Jolt for me not to demonstrate that life's short. I think I was already pretty cognizant of that, but more to jar me about, oh, honey Bunny, you might die like her with just a bunch of regrets because you didn't take action on all the dreams you have. So that sees me, that gripping fear of, oh, I know I'm gonna die, hopefully not soon, but I really don't wanna get to the end and feel like I didn't, I. Do the things I yearned to do. So that was always what kind of grabbed me.

CODY: 2:34

Yeah, and, I was contemplating on this the other day, because I was going on YouTube shorts and there's a guy that's, now, instead of interviewing. The person who has the fancy car or the nice apartment, he was interviewing older people and asking them what do they most regret? And, we all have those things. Like I wish I worked less, I, I wish I was able to have more friends or spend more time socializing. But also I just had this opposite thought is that They worked hard to a degree that allowed them to come to that conclusion that that allowed them to live the life that they now have. That as older people, you tend to have more appreciation for. So it just made me think whether or not the sacrifice that they made earlier was what led to their current levels of fulfillment. But I think there is a degree where we could probably work less and socialize more. but that was just a thought.

Jodi: 3:20

I love that It's such a great perspective.'cause it's that you earn the right to have that regret in some ways, right? Like in a way it's like everything, the good with the bad, but that it afforded you opportunities, perhaps that you reveled in life at some stages and then you maybe had a phase in between where you softened. But, yeah, interesting perspective.

CODY: 3:40

and then there's also that idea of, you know, we all have those moments maybe, you probably even have a word for this moment where, say, somebody gets cancer and somebody has a health crisis, or you, yourself experience a health crisis. And it's always that, that wake up call that you feel like, oh my, my life is short. I need to, to live it. And then maybe you decide you're gonna go and climb Mount Everest and I guess there's a perspective as, really what you're trying to teach is that we don't have to wait for those moments. We can realize that moment in ourselves without this crisis.

Jodi: 4:14

you are tapping into exactly the thing that just grabs me and said that's it. And I want for all of us to experience in some way, shape, or form, even if it's a fraction of that, what the psychologists call the roar of awakening. For people who have had that peered over the edge but didn't quite make it to death. Thankfully, they, they were pulled back from the edge and then they get to live and those people according to research. So it's not just anecdotal, but this is, these are based in studies. There are so many significant. Benefits that people who've had a near death experience or even that brush have that I am envious of and I want us to get a piece of, you know, those reprioritized rest of our lives. Right. That's the notion of, like you said, I'm gonna climb Everest.'cause I know I don't have the time necessarily to wait. And these people do something that I find fascinating. They eliminate some of the. Just the little tiny bits and pieces the rest of us worry about. I don't care anymore. It's like the trivial stuff that we consume ourselves with that I dare say we squander our time with worrying about what so and so thinks about us, or did we respond to that proposal fast enough or think, you know, they just don't sweat the small stuff as much. And so it's a matter of reprioritizing and recalibrating what matters in life. Wow. That's a gift and an opportunity that us mere mortals who haven't had this grand opportunity to see over the edge. That's why I'm trying to shake us, not that violently, but really quite shake us to say, let's wake up and realize like we don't have this freaking eternity that we lull ourselves. I know we know logically we're gonna die, but we get into this little comfort of I'll get to do it later, and I'm here to say, whoa, maybe you won't. by definition we won't, but maybe you won't even get as long as you are hoping you have.

CODY: 6:07

There's this common, quote, it's not a parable, but it's a, phrase that I think we all know, which is, you know, live each day as if it were your last. And I question is that, is that really possible? I know a lot of people have pondered on this phrase, can you really live each day? I mean, would you just. Be completely, hedonic and just, you know, party. Is that what you're supposed to do? Are you supposed to work really hard? what is it that you're supposed to do? is this a relevant quote? And, how is it even possible to live each day as if it were your last?

Jodi: 6:35

Right. I like you're bringing it up. I believe it is not very helpful. So I believe it's fascinating in a conversation with friends or just amuse on yourself. But I think that it's too short of a timeframe.'cause we all know we would abandon all reason and we would just, you know, that would be a very different hedonic kind of environment just to, living it up in a way that's not in any way sustainable. For many people, a better or different kind of question is tapping into, an old sort of Nietzsche story, which is his idea called The Eternal Return. And it's based on this idea that imagine if you were either given a curse or a blessing, depending how you look at it, where you were going to live your exact life, the way you've lived it from the moment you were born until today. On repeat over and over and over again for all of eternity. And his point was that for some of us that learn that and think about that and think, do I wanna live this life again? It is a point that he said, we'll either crush you or delight you. And I think those are more provocative questions that get us to think about how am I living? would I want to do this thing again the way I've done it? or if you don't like the idea of the one day left to live, if then, you know, I think a year is even too short for most of us.'cause we drain the bank account. we'd live in such a way that may not be indicative of living, wide and deep like I like to say. so for many of us, you know, I like to pick an arbitrary date that's like 30 years out depending on your age, So if somebody's in their thirties, 30 years out, feels like. That's a long enough time, but not a long enough time. And so sometimes that's a more useful exercise, a thought experiment to imagine.

CODY: 8:13

And in your book, you, you ha you start out with this concept of a pre-mortem of really understanding, like it's, creating like a post-mortem analysis, but before you die and you ask the reader a bunch of questions that they should ask themselves, would you be able to help us understand what some of those questions are and why we should be asking ourselves those questions.

Jodi: 8:37

Oh, love that. Yeah, I mean, conceptually the idea is that if we wanna sculpt and create this life worth living, however we determine though what that is. With however many Mondays we have left, we have to have an iota of like, what does that even look like? And most busy professionals have kind of lost the plot on what it is like to think like, what is this life that I'd like? We may have random dreams and musings. Some of us are very organized. Of course it's not everybody, but. I want us to be, create self-awareness as the very first step because as they always say, you know, awareness is the precursor to change. And I believe strongly that we need to do this concept called diagnosing the dead zones. So of course, in, my world, everything has the corny metaphors about being dead or alive. But I do think that, when we are able to pinpoint parts of our lives that have flatlined where we believe. Oh man, like my social life is kind of tanked. I, I tanked in covid and I never really resurrected it. Like maybe that's some, that's scenario that could maybe bring me more joy or meaningful connection and maybe that's where I really wanna be. I only have so many hours in a day, in a week, but maybe that's where I wanna infuse maybe one or two more hours just to make me feel like I'm doing this life justice. So if that's one example, but when you're able to diagnose wherever in life you're feeling like things are flat and maybe. Pick and choose. What's one thing you can do to approach that. Then that gives you a fighting chance to then live a life that you get to the end and you feel like you showed up, and you were intentional about it rather than, oh my goodness, man, the days just fly by.'cause you know, is life passing you by? That's usually what happens is when we're busy and we're just trying to get stuff done. I think this is a matter of slowing down and this kind of pre-mortem I'm answering. I haven't counted how many questions there are in that chapter, but I mean it's, we're well into the triple

CODY: 10:30

Right? It's a lot.

Jodi: 10:31

you can cherry pick them, but I think a lot of them, you know, one of my favorite questions is what makes you feel most alive? And it's so deceptively simple, 'cause it doesn't have to be something massive like, oh, when I'm zip lining in the rainforest. That might be your pick. I don't know. But for some of us it's something sweet. Like when I do workshops, it's so lovely and charming for people to hear one another's answers about, well I feel alive when, and someone might say, when I'm just walking my dog to the lake and back and I've got my Tumblr of travel coffee in my, hand and the sun's coming up. And man, that does it for me. And that might not float the next guy's boat, but that's fine. We're all different. I'm not trying to say that's a competition. But Knowing, what are the things that make you feel really alive? And then how do you organize your life so that you get to do more of it? Can I be nosy right now and ask you, what's an example of one thing that makes you big or small feel just undeniably alive?

CODY: 11:30

Well, it actually relates to even this podcast, mind hack, is I've had so many conversations with people where they reveal a certain part of me or a part of them a vulnerability, if you will. And I'm able to give them different perspectives and I've seen people's mindset. and Perspective shift in a matter of moments. And that's the thing that I love. And I realized that I have a gift to the world, which is helping people have these insights. And so that was even the premises for establishing this podcast, and that's why I love having these conversations about deep, meaningful topics.

Jodi: 12:03

So kudos to you then for. Knowing that it's a source of aliveness and just keep doing more of it. So you get it in the one-on-one, but then you know that listeners will also be having those light bulb, ugh, mindset shift moments that help steer the course of their lives. Love that. Love that you do that and hope you never darn well stop. Um, so being able to tune in, it's like the attunement. Skill is something we can all do. It's noticing what is this thing that makes me feel, it doesn't always have to be alive, like I think that can sound extreme. Like the language I use is wanting to feel astonishingly alive. And is it hyperbolic? Just to make a point for sure. But sometimes it's the sweet, simple stuff in life that we overlook and underestimate that it actually makes a big difference in our experience of waking up and going through our days. It's the. thinking of a gentleman that a, again, he was at a conference and his point was for him it was. Walking outside and reading a fiction book at lunch, and he's this big business guy, He is like, for years all I did was read business books. I'm like, hallelujah, I hear you. And then he's like, I forgot. I wanna read a murder mystery. And so he's delighting right now in his. Crazy busy life that he loves, but he's like, I love it more because I sit outside for 25 minutes and I wolf down whatever the lunch is and he's like, but the main thing is I'm reading a chapter in my fiction book and I love it. And so that's just a small, simple joy that costs him, 29 bucks to buy the book. so that's, it's intentionally a simple example just to illustrate that. Crafting a life worth living doesn't have to involve a ton of dough or time, or even a lot of creativity. We just have to know ourselves a little bit better. What do we like? What might give us joy? Who gives us joy, who takes our joy away, hang around with that person less?

CODY: 13:52

And it seems like we're bombarded by cultural societal norms. we grow up and we have, our parents have expectations for us. I know like Asian Americans, they have this huge expectation of, going to school, being a lawyer and their parents push them to do that. And so there's so many, instances in which, where we're pushed or were pulled, or now we have kids whose. Lives revolve around TikTok and depression and anxiety are up because we're constantly comparing ourselves to others and we're trying to put ourselves in a pedestal to make ourselves special. And yet a lot of that is misaligned from the thing that we can truly derive a sense of value from. So do you have any advice for people? How can they connect with themselves? How can they find that awareness? How can they separate? What's the thing that they truly derive joy from? From the thing that society tells them that they should.

Jodi: 14:43

Love this. Well, we're gonna go back to that conversation we started around people who've. Face the edge. they had this kind of experience with death. One of the benefits they experience is that they do come out of their experience, say they come out like as though they're emerging from the woods. I guess I imagine it that way. They come out of the rubble and they're alive and they, one of the hallmarks is that they release what is known as like others' expectations, and they do get. A greater focus on what they authentically want. So that crystallized knowing. I think many of us we're looking around searching and I work with a lot of, again, it's like these professionals who have lost touch with what is the thing I like. Maybe they've been caregiving at home for kids. Maybe they have been looking after a bunch of giant kids at work because they're a leader and they've lost touch with what it is. What brings me joy, to your point. I love it. It's like. Is this joy that's manufactured because it looks good or because my friends are all really interested in this, in playing pickleball, but I don't wanna touch a pickleball racket with a 10 foot pole. Or would it make me look cool if I did a sketching class? Like at some point, if we do the thing and we ask ourselves again, back to the idea about is it energizing to think about, so I have this test sometimes where it's about do you look forward to it if it's in your calendar? Or is there a little element of dread when you're doing it? Does it make you feel energized and lit up? And when you talk about it later, do you light up when you talk about it? Or it's, for whatever reason, are you kind of flat and it's, or it's neutral or it's negative. And I live in a world right now where I'm like, neutral's not enough. believe me, I gotta satisfy spice with some things. I'm not gonna pick apart every single breakfast every single morning, but like in general, our choices in life with our discretionary time, which is so freaking precious, you know. I don't want us to settle. I don't want us to feel like it was fine. I want us to be Now, you know, this isn't like childlike delight at every endeavor. That's also exhausting. but when we're gonna get up and do something and we're gonna do that test, am I looking forward to it? And when I'm doing it, am I enjoying it? Am I talking about it later? Honestly, loving it. And we know the difference between honestly, getting really giddy about archery lessons versus thinking. I'm gonna take a picture that I'm gonna post on Instagram. There's a totally different energy to that, that most of us are in touch with if we're honest with ourselves.

CODY: 17:10

and so you advocate for this concept of embracing more like mortality awareness. And so how do you suggest that we start this process, without becoming overwhelmed by this concept of death?

Jodi: 17:25

Yeah. I want us to have this. Poke in the ribs, not, a violent shaking, and, uh, thrown into massive existential despair. my number one recommendation is for us to count how many Mondays we have left. Okay. And that sounds potentially morbid, and of course it is. But let's be honest, we're all grownups. We all know the times ticking. And so I think the math is really crucial, especially for people who like to, in any way being analytical. But it's also even just for some of us that have no concept of time, it's like. Wait a minute, like I know I have as of this week, 1,841 Mondays, and I do that math every week. It's obviously my job to do, so practice what I preach. But for many people, we need it to be granular. We needed to, we need to see it in a different light to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. And I even get people to do, depending on their profession and what their thoughts are in retirement. Like, how many working Mondays do you have left before your, whatever retirement looks like for you? You know? And for most of us, I don't know if we're all gonna fully retire, but, version of that, that can sometimes be the, wait a minute, I only have 642 working Mondays left for me to put my dent in the world. Not that you can't put a dent in your world beyond that, but I just mean, and if, career is the example here. So I think getting granular with the math, the mortality, math is the very first step. It's to wake up and it's called temporal scarcity is the science behind it, by the way. And it's that notion that whenever we are tuned into the temporary nature of any asset, it could be diamonds or it could be limited time only. You know all you can eat shrimp sampler at Red, Lobster. but when we know something is scarce. Oh, we see it in a different light, right? We see it as way more valuable, and we're all just walking around conveniently burying our heads in the sand, not wanting to talk about or think about death. It's a taboo topic, even though it's fascinating to us in a weird way. What I say, face it, head on, bring it into the room. Do the math with your family tonight at dinner. my dad did the, I have a. A calculator on my website, on the resource page, because not everybody delights in doing math and it's not a hard calculation, but, you know, so he did, my dad did this, uh, calculation and he called me and he said, Joe, you know, I think I broke the calculator because my number came out as like minus 230 Mondays. And of course it was, oh daddy, you know, it's 'cause you're. You're over 78, which is the math for men. it's 'cause he is in his eighties. And of course we had a chuckle about that. most people will not get a minus, but even if you do, and as my dad says, I'm playing with house money and make it count.

CODY: 19:59

I remember when I first thought of this topic, it was partially in Ryan Holiday's book, or series of books. But now there's also an on way, but why he has a blog post that he talks about the life calendar. And after reading that post, I was convinced and so I bought my own life calendar. I have one. And then I fill in every single week. And my own practice just outta fascination on this is, I will color each week based on how that week went. I have blue for regular, green for amazing, purple for travel, orange for not so great. Red for terrible. So I have this all color coded, and then on top of that, in case there's like a fire, if I lose that calendar for whatever reason, I have an app that's called Life Calendar. And this is a very similar concept. I put in the title for that week and a description about what happened, and I upload a random picture that seems interesting from that week. Now, on top of that, I use an app called One se, which is one second every day. This is where I take a random video from that day and then I upload it into the app. And I've been doing this, on and off now, but for a few years, but now pretty consistently. And it feels really fascinating when you go back over that past year and you play all these various moments that occurred from that time period, and you feel something inside that was just last year and you experienced all these amazing experiences. And on top of that, I used. The day one journal. So it, and I have this weekly journal that I've been doing for almost a decade now, where every single week I combine, oh, actually, let me back up. I, actually use, I know there's so many apps in this, I'm so neurotic in the sense where I'm trying to catalog as much information as I can. And, have this other app, it's called exist.io, and at the end of every day, I can rate every day from a one to a nine with nine being the best. I'm not sure why it's nine and not 10, but I just do a voice to text and I just write what happened that day. And then at the end of the week when I do my weekly journal, I import everything that happened and then I generate a summary, and then I ask myself some questions. What did I not enjoy about this week? What can I do to. Improve, what can I do to do better? What am I not really happy about? And so I'm consistently having this journaling practice and I found that if I don't have that daily journal, at the end of the day, I tend to forget the main things that happen in the week. Those emotional moments.. That I can then analyze at the end of the week. And so that I have this, physical life calendar. I have an app life calendar. I have the daily, what do I do? I have the daily video. Maybe it's probably too much, so don't become overwhelmed by this, but that's my routine. And I think to some extent that helps me to recognize that my life is limited and. That is, a motivator and it can help you make sure that you're not living with what other people decide that, with societal norms and, holding yourself back from all the cognitive dissonance that you might experience on a regular basis.

Jodi: 22:57

I love this so much. It hurts all the ways that you capture. Your existence and it's reflective, right? So I do think that there's power in doing the math and like calculate. I love, I have the life calendar too, from Tim Urban on Wait but why I love the way you've taken it next level. So you are demonstrating what I think, many of us yearn to do and could benefit from. It's the real questioning, am I, you're essentially asking if I could boil it down. I'm making the most of my life right now. You're, doing the, emotional awareness and then also the, and my question then is, does it change the way you behave moving forward? Because presumably this isn't all looking back and it's not all with the assumption that I want to be able to look back on these photos. It's like, it's an input process to be able to sculpt what's coming. Right? Because this is about, if you see, for example, you've got too many orange or red days in a row on this vi visual calendar, it's like someone's gotta give here. That's another way of diagnosing a dead zone.'cause you're gonna ask some questions, right? Like what has made this entire week alert, status red versus, you know, something else. So by being intentional, this is our opportunity. I think that's become aware of what we want and what's working and what's not. Be intentional about here is what I, here's the way I wanna fill my days. And because it's limited and because the more we hear stories about it and the more we have these kinds of conversations about the fact that. People who have waited, for example, to live later. I'm gonna do that later. when when things get less busy, that's when I'm gonna plan that really cool trip and take that course that I wanna take or start dating or, fill in the blanks. There's no shortage of ideas. Some options, they're waiting for later from some like mystical land of tomorrow or retirement, which is a big joke.'cause like you may not even be able bodied or alive by then. I just feel so sad for the life that needs to be lived today. like I can just picture life, like I like to draw and I'm just picturing life as a character. Like, wait, what about me? You know, today, like I love that you're banking all this idea for tomorrow maybe, but what about now? so yeah, that awareness and then the intention and then action.'cause that's the difference, right?

CODY: 25:13

Right.

Jodi: 25:13

mean, The road to hell is paved with good intentions, I believe. the road to the grave is paved with bucket lists that are overflowing, that no one that we just haven't actually systematically attacked. And that to me feels really super, potentially sad and something we can totally, totally take action on. Now, one thing at a time, right? That's all we can do.

CODY: 25:36

and so there was a, amazing conversation I had with Kristen Neff who wrote this book on the science of self-compassion, and she emphasizes that it's really hard to change. Unless you can find a sense of self-acceptance and self-compassion with yourself, because you're holding on to so much like self-loathing and, hatred and that can be difficult to get yourself out of that. And even in, the one SE app I found that it's an app, where you're taking that one second video every day. But in doing so, is that you're act I actually found I was training my mind. To look out for those small moments that are amazing in that day that just would otherwise pass you by, whether it's like going for a walk in the morning with your dog. It's also, I think, looking at the life calendar, it's finding gratitude for all of those small moments, and if you can find gratitude for the life that you have now, I think that can also be an impetus for how can I find more purpose and the work that I do on a daily basis. You will be in that mindset that I can do more, I can be more.

Jodi: 26:38

I love you're saying this. I love Kristen Neff too, and I think. There's a lot of research out there that I found so comforting that in an ironic way around, they talk about mortality. Salience is the fancy way of just becoming aware of the fact that we're totally gonna die whenever we're made aware of death. Whether it's through an abstract way like the funeral procession drives by, or in a more concrete way, like our conversation. Anybody listening right now? It's more concrete. It's specific when we're made aware of it. A lot of research does show that our. Ability to experience gratitude does increase. So some of it is just quite the simple, like I am just freaking grateful to be alive. like I'm grateful that I am maybe able bodied or not, or I am able to, achieve some of the things I want because I still have time. this appreciation for life is one of the hallmarks that can come from a lot of this act. And so when I'm talking about temporal scarcity and talking about this idea about people who've almost died, I mean, man, their degree of appreciation's off the charts, But I think what's another benefit that's hidden for this Memento Maori concept, which is remembering that we are gonna die, it's that it does shift us from not taking it for granted our time. And we're wired to do that. And we're busy, got stuff on the go and we've got cognitive dissonance going on and we just like, we we're just trying to, we're just trying to survive out there. Do our best. But I think we could just maybe ratchet it up a little bit more if we did stop and say. Let's face the beast just for a quick sec and be like, yeah, you know, it's sad, we all know it, but how do I wanna make one decision moving forward that's gonna make me feel like you're saying the orientation changes. Like if you're practicing self compassion and if you're practicing gratitude, you start to look for things in your day that you're gonna fill into your journal at night. things I'm grateful for. There's a remarkable practice that happens when you start practicing like Memento Mori reminders. Talk about apps. Have you heard of Roak? The app?

CODY: 28:32

No.

Jodi: 28:33

It's a dollar 99 a month, very affordable, and five random times a day. It just sends you a message, remember, you're gonna die. It's lovely. It's just a little heartwarming little buzz five times a day. And when though you start to really get grounded in this idea. Oh yeah. Don't forget, like time's ticking. You may wanna get on with those dreams you have. Then you start the back to your orientation changing in the day. Your orientation does change to when your friends are in a conversation, oh, we should totally meet and do that NAPA trip instead of just doing the natural thing. Which I would do just like, yeah, we'll totally do it later. It's, you know what, I have 1000 141 Mondays left. Like, yeah, let's do it. Like, let's, let's book the trip. Let's not talk about it. Let's do it. and in a realistic way, back to your point about, no, we're not gonna live every day, so it's the last and basically get fired from our jobs because all we're doing is going on vacation with friends because time is tight. No, we're gonna manage our time, but I think we all know the difference between languishing and letting, many, many, many opportunities pass to. Again, do things that might give us joy, whether it's social or recreational or spiritual, or with your body or with your mind. I don't, I don't know. Whatever, whatever, whatever you wanna do, but just do it. Don't not do it.

CODY: 29:49

Hmm. that's so powerful. it reminds me of so often when I've been asked whether I want to go on a trip with somebody, whether I wanna have this experience and I'm as smart as I am, I also have a lot of anxiety and. My mind will start going in all these ways that I don't know about it. I'm not really confident. I don't know if I should. I mean, it's gonna be a lot of time. Am I really gonna enjoy it? And my mind starts going in all in these loops that make it really difficult to get out of. And I know this is not just unique to me. So what you're saying is by having this concept of I'm going to die, and remembering that as is like this quote within your soul that you can just pull out and ask yourself whenever you're faced with a challenge, whenever you're faced with something that you might enjoy, you probably will enjoy, but there's some part of your soul that's, that's stopping you, that's hesitating you, you're saying by asking this question that can help you overcome whatever it is that, whatever, it's the, it is the fear. It's the, it's cognitive dissonance as we say, and that can help you overcome and make that decision because you realize that your time here on this planet is limited.

Jodi: 30:55

It's so well summarized. Yeah, I think some people, are naturally perhaps more extroverted. Let's use that as an example. And so it's easy to use this when we're talking about maybe social outings 'cause those are the things that can cause sometimes a little more angst for us. But sometimes it's even just, maybe it's travel with a loved one who, there's no social anxiety, it's just fricking travel anxiety or it's financial anxiety, or it's something, some choice that makes you just feel like. Quite frankly, it's easier to stay home in my cocoon, you know, or not make, not make the change or not, not initiate something that does feel a little bit scary or out of my zone. The question, I think, 'cause I'm all about living a life, that when we get to the end, we don't feel like we squandered it. And so it's this thing about a squander free life and then said differently. It's, not having regrets and I don't care about regrets of commission, you know, the dumb things we did and wish we didn't. we find a way to rationalize those gems, but it's the regrets of omission that eat us up. The regrets about things that, man, I always said I wanted. To learn how to speak Italian and I never did, or I always wished that I had gone to Tokyo and I never did. Like when we tune into the things we're longing to do now, and again, this goes back full circle to our earlier part of the conversation, like. Get a glimpse at yourself, like what would be cool things you would wanna put on? Okay, fine. It's the proverbial bucket list. But then ask yourself, like if, if I was at my end, like tonight's the night I'm checking out, would I feel some things you'd just be like, yeah, I always wanted to go to that restaurant, but I never got there. No big deal. But some things we'd have feelings about, you know, like. Like, oh man, I, I always wanted to write that book, but I just, I always said I would do it later. I was just too scared, Or fill in all the blanks. Right? And those are the indications. So one way to check it is to ask yourself, would you feel that really crappy pang of regret if it was your last night tonight? That's one way to check it. another thing that. When we're just in the do or die moment of not die, literally, of deciding to say yes to an opportunity or not, my new question is will I regret doing it or I will. I regret not doing it afterwards. And I'm an introvert and I'm a homebody, so I'm gonna wanna stay home as my default setting every time. But when I'm faced with something that might be kind of neat, you know, to go and go to a concert at a small venue, I'm like, that would be great. And I always like the idea of going long in advance, but then I wanna cancel the night before or the day of, and I stop and think, okay, I don't wanna go because I'm just tired and lazy and maybe a little bit awkward, but I, I would regret not going because every time I've been out and done something. I've never regretted it when I came home. You know, the feeling like doing it is, it's invigorating in some way. And you go, you get to be like, I got a participation ribbon. I did it. I had the fun like, and you know, it could be that you went to the ukulele class or it could be that you went and volunteered at that thing. You've always been cur like you did it. And would it have been easier beforehand to just stay home and watch Netflix? For sure, but I can't do that too many nights in a row before I get that niggling sense of. Oh honey, I think you might be squandering, not savoring your life. And then I just have to course correct it 'cause that's all we got. That's all we can do.

CODY: 34:14

All right. And, I'm building an app right now. It's called Mental Reminders. And the concept is that it will allow you to insert things that you want to remind yourself about, and then it will bounce back and push back on your phone and random times of the day as a reminder. And I think in part what you're saying here is that we should invigorate and embody this concept of asking ourselves. Is this something I'm going to regret? And when, whenever that challenge comes up, and that can often be the most difficult decision because, you know, our limbic system takes over, we might feel that fight or flight. And if we can try to embody that as a core part of our decision making, then in some ways we can ask ourselves that we can do that pre-mortem, that assessment, and we can really ask ourselves and be aware, is this something that I should do despite all of these fears and these feelings. Is this something that is going to like liberate me? Am I gonna feel alive after? And I think that's a powerful, powerful concept.

Jodi: 35:12

Yeah. Oh. I'm totally gonna get your app,

CODY: 35:16

Thank you. in terms of, self-actualization, that's a really core part of what I hope that others can achieve. It's, it really allows you to feel like you're living your full potential. Are there any methodologies, is it just this simple concept of asking yourself this question that what am I, am I going to regret this? What are my regrets? Is there any other concepts that you might be able to bring up, in terms of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Human Needs where. Self-actualization can help us.

Jodi: 35:45

Yeah. One of the ways I look at life, I like frameworks. I just think it's easier sometimes to evaluate ourselves with a, just gimme a two by two matrix and then I'll understand things, you know? So I have one, and it's kind of this response to how many of us would love to live longer. And I think most of us that would agree, like, I don't wanna just live longer to get to like centenarian status. I wanna. Also have a quality of life while I'm there. So I like breaking it out into two different axes. So it's living wider with vitality and deeper with meaning, and so living wider with vitality. That's the more classic sort of hedonic kind of wellbeing where it's the pleasure, it's going and doing neat experiences, having fun. It's like it, I call it like fun and frothy and fizzy. It's great. It's great. It's necessary. And so some of us have that notion when asked, if you were gonna plot yourself on a spectrum from one end to the other of how vitally alive do you feel? we can kind of plot ourselves on any given day, but then in relation to the other end of the zone, it's living deeper.. And that's with meaning, and that's the EU dimension of wellbeing. And that's the rich sort of sense of am I, aligned with some kind of purpose? Am I experiencing any kind of connection with, oh, like other human beings or maybe even something bigger than myself, like a spiritual angle. Do I feel like, like that's when you're using your character strengths, your virtues, it's good stuff. So what happens when you overlay the widening X-axis with vitality and the. Deepening meaning axis, the Y axis, you end up with quadrants. And I think that that is a really great way back to assessment like in a pre-mortem, but also in a way of looking at your life and saying, okay, if I'm gonna get a little bit prescriptive about this to better know, like where do I start what am I gonna do about this? How do I reach my potential? The goal really is how do I make choices?'cause we're just faced with choices at any given moment and not doing anything to choice of course, which is really what I think many of us are doing is just the usual routine, which I'm very wary of. Like if I wanna widen my life, what might be one way I could do that. Oh, okay. We'll be looking into taking that cooking class that I keep wondering about. Okay, we'll look it up. Maybe register. Maybe it means if it's deepening you want, 'cause you're feeling a little empty inside. Like maybe you're having fun, but you go home and it's like life feels hollow. It could be, you know, I really do think I need to, I. Maybe I wanna kind of rekindle my Buddhist faith or whatever it is you choose and go back and go to a service or do something or read and, and then, okay, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna, you know what, I'm gonna do that on Saturday morning. You book it and you do it. And I dare anybody to tell me that after doing a thing that you have decided as a result of looking at your life in this way, and you've taken action and you said, this is gonna be a thing I do to help me feel wider and or deeper. that's a vote for life. Like that's a vote for standing up for your aliveness and that's pretty freaking great. So I think potential in many ways is incremental. Little, tiny steps where we're choosing the choice to live wider and or deeper at any given moment instead of the status quo, which is really quite like, it's homeostasis is just a really cavernous, lonely place, which just wants us to keep everything, kind of ho-hum. And sometimes like homeostasis, like, believe me, I know our body needs and wants it for a reason.'cause it's just, it's fricking calm. And I'm not suggesting that we want, you know, tumultuous waves every, I not, not at all. But we do need to jostle a little bit. We do need to alter routines. We do need to stop and say like, I, okay, it's gonna mean that I'm gonna have to change my routine on Saturday morning if I wanna read that Buddhist book again. Or if I wanna get out my old skateboard and try not to kill myself. Like I really wanna try it. Well, that's gonna represent a small jolt in your routine, and that is precisely what the doctor ordered, you know, to feel more alive and then therefore potentially one chipping away at one little step up that mountain towards self-actualization.

CODY: 39:43

All right. it's so easy to stay within our comfort zone, and I know we all know that, we have a comfort zone and we have the zone of challenge, and it's difficult to step over that. But almost every time that we challenge ourselves to something new, it, invigorates us. It allows us to feel that sense of accomplishment. And there's, something that I learned is that, say having an ice cream cone is. It's rewarding in that moment. it's nice. It tastes great. You can appreciate that. But then also deciding that I'm not going to have this ice cream cone. There is also a reward. There is also a happiness associated with that, and I think we often don't understand that we forget that there is a happiness that can come along with achieving the goal of the challenge and being able to look back and appreciating ourselves for being able to make that tough decision.

Jodi: 40:29

you bring something up. I love this so much.'cause I think this is the push pull and that tension that exists in a lot of life.'cause you know, I use the example in my mind of fries. I really like french fries and sometimes joy. And like living life fully to me is like, I'm gonna order the fries. Absolutely. And if there are Parmesan truffle fries, they will be in my face. And that's great. But yet on other to your point, sometimes depending on the situation and the context being everything, sometimes it is saying, you know, fries, I will come back to you next time. You know, I will. But today is gonna be just a fabulous salad with those seeds on top. And For some of us, the answer is go for the choice that makes you feel good, joyful in the moment. And for some of us it's the desire of maybe wanting to be a different kind of person that makes healthy choices. And so I think everything is like contextual. Like what, where are you today? What's the goal you're after today? What kind of feeling do you want today? What will make you feel most alive today versus guilty versus not? Versus reveled in it. So that's where it's complicated'cause there isn't a clear answer. But I also think we need to make room for both. Fries or no fries, ice cream or no ice cream?

CODY: 41:42

And in terms of the other ways that we can actually. Realize what our regrets might be is when you were talking about it, a lot of what you were saying, it reminds me of like an annual review or having a life goals list. And often we're just in this minutiae of day-to-day living that we don't really ask ourselves these questions. What kinds of things can we do? Whether it's, Conducting an annual review that we can do as a means of knowing what really are the goals that we want to achieve, what are our bucket list items, because I feel like not a lot of us actually do that work.

Jodi: 42:16

Yeah, I think you're so right. I think oftentimes it starts, it could be a bunch of different ways, so I think it does differ by person. Sometimes it starts small, right? Where it is just jotting out that list on whatever tablet or spreadsheet or back of a napkin you've got where you wanna jot out things that, again, back to make you feel alive. And then that usually segues into something different where it ends up being, oh yeah. And then you remember, you know, oh, I want, I forgot that I did when I said I wanted to take that cooking class. I also wanted to, one of my dreams is to go on a sabbatical in Tuscany for three months or more, and then that goes on another list. And so I like to make space for a couple things. It's the permission to dream, which once you start to do more of that. And you ideally surround yourself by people that are willing to do that too. And you have great conversations you, vicariously build and on each other's ideas, which is lovely. That's why I think the workshops that I love to do are so good with that because one person says, I've always wanted to do TaeKwonDo, and someone else is like, oh my gosh, I forgot. I wanna go back and get my green belt. And then the next thing you know, it's like this additive building thing. so I think the first phase is. Put everything out there, get it all out, have the mind map, have all the stickies or however you organize things. This is a life that man like would be great, and celebrating what has gone well. So the positive psychology practitioner in me would be really, really remiss if I didn't say. that We need to do that appreciative inquiry, which is like, when am I at my best? Like when, over this last year, for example, if it's a yearly review or it could be quarterly or however long, when in this last block of time was I feeling really plugged in and alive? What was going on? Who was there? What was I doing? Was I eating Like were there fries? Like what was really what was going on for me? And. Really analyzing when things are going well, that then provides a really nice playbook in a way for like, well, how do I replicate that? Like, I do not need to reinvent wheels. I would like to be efficient in my joy. And so why not say, well, wait a minute, it was when I was working out three times a week. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. And oh, I had that weekend trip with the girls. Oh my gosh. And I was reading, I forgot, I was reading those biographies and it's like. Do you think you might wanna maybe put that on a little bit of repeat and not repeat ad nauseum, like then you're gonna get tired of it, but I think it's analyzing what went well and why. And do you wanna maybe slot more of that in? And then it's looking at all the dreams and hopes you have for yourself in this limited time only situation. And it's then starting to, don't forget the grim reaper. Recognizing that your time is limited and even the time you have at the end, I'm talking about counting our Mondays, but let's be honest, a lot of those Mondays at the end, if we're gonna do like a weighted average here, they don't, weigh as much.'cause we may not be as fully functional. You know what I'm saying? So, the way I look at it, I have to modify the math. Actually, that's a to do for later. but. We're getting, like consistently having that jolt about, yeah. Right. Okay. Okay. Look at all the, look at all the things I long to do. It can't possibly all fit, but if I was to prioritize what would be something that is actually doable today, and how do I plug that in? so the year review I think has gotta include celebrations of small wins and replication. That, and it needs to also include dreaming. And then nothing like as I said to you earlier, you know, with my mom dying, with all the dreams stuck inside of her. Ugh. let's not any single one of us do that. Let's identify at least one thing that matters to us. And it doesn't need to be big stakes. Like I believe we get afraid when we use big words like potential. And when we use big words like promise, and purpose and, even passion, those are all pretty scary for people. But I know your listeners are more sort of evolved and I know that you're already playing this game. And so I think that, we can dream big. I would never have us not, and I also just think let's make time and space for what if I did one thing Now that got me some more, even some more momentum. Like, especially when we're busy. I mean that's the little bit of the thing we fall into. Like you could. Be getting a lot of good feelings in your life about the success you have and working 12 hour days, right? And then at some point you might say, this is actually pretty invigorating. I like my life and I'm not gonna argue with you. Great. If you like your life all like time, I won't even argue with you anyways. But could you, do you, are there a couple of other things you're thinking about if you keep coming back to it and you keep thinking. I do wanna go to Prague, or I do really want to do that thing at the library where you read to kids. I don't know why. You don't have to know why it's so funny.'cause when I'm in workshops, I'll ask people the thing that they might wanna do and people get so kind of protective and defensive of it. They're like, I don't even know why I am. Like, you don't even have to know why. We wanna make meaning of everything. Right? But if you wanna do it, just give it a go. Give it a try. so. Yeah, year review, analyzing, and then make sure it's not just a gratuitous experience.'cause I think sometimes that's where self-reflection can feel insightful and lovely. And then unfortunately not that actionable because it's learn a lot. Take your notes, realize and say, and now what? What do you wanna do next? and what's in your calendar that you're actually looking forward to, that you put there?'cause you are gonna be the one to plot and plan that right.

CODY: 47:35

All right. so whether it's, doing an annual review, a quarterly review, simply pausing in your day and asking yourself, do I enjoy this thing that I'm doing right now for eight hours a day? And maybe it's a thought. So there's a practice that I have, I call it reverse meditation. it's basically just thinking, but I coined it that because I view it as the opposite of meditation. And so much of what you're saying here is it comes down to awareness. Having the awareness to know. What is our desire? What is our goal? Even if we don't know why we want to go do something, it's having the awareness to know that it's there. And I think certainly meditation can help with this, and for me it's a routine where I'll sit down in a special chair and then I close my eyes and I think about how did the day go? Were there any particular moments that felt emotional to me? Do I need to go over and how is the week going and how is next week going to go and what is it that I want to be excited about? Oh, I'm kind of stuck on this idea of, I want to go do this, this marathon. Do I really wanna do the marathon? Well, maybe I should. And what's stopping me? It's this sort of, this analysis. analyzing my own emotions and thoughts and having that awareness. And I think that's, for me, it's been a powerful practice to really help me level up and to achieve those things that I once thought I would literally never achieve. So that's my practice. wondering if you

Jodi: 49:03

Great. I love that.

CODY: 49:04

to share.

Jodi: 49:05

Oh, I love that. Well, you referred to even something as tactile as having a special chair, and let's not overlook the importance of physical environment, place, and space. of us do. Fabulous work with our brains when we even change our environment. So I'm a fan of also having a special place to sit and whatever that looks like. And it usually involves a cat on the lap, if possible, if he will cooperate. but often I'm a fan of having a personal retreat and a friend of mine, Kevin, has always inspired me because he's in Chicago and he would take the train first thing in the morning to Kalamazoo, Michigan. I swear it's just 'cause it's a town with a cool name. And he'd get off the train and go to a hotel lobby and he'd sit in lo. By the way, hotel lobbies are the best 'cause you can loiter there and everyone just expects you to loiter and you just sit in a fabulous chair and you can sit in, people watch if you want to, and it's usually beautiful. I mean, pick your hotel carefully and yo ho you know, the inspiration. Maybe if hotels don't do it for you, that's fine. Like it's a, maybe you want a charming bohemian coffee shop, or sit by the water or do what you wanna do. But getting away. And I'm a fan of that. So he would also then just take the. The train home that night. So he'd be in a totally different, literally in a different state. Um, but for the day and come home and be like quarterly, like I did my thing. Like I, I analyzed what happened. I really got clear on what I wanna have happen next and I know my action steps moving forward. Beauty. and So what does that look like? What would an environment be like for you? Not everybody has the luxury of getting on a train for the day. I realize some parents right now might be rolling their eyes fine, but could you go for three hours or two hours to a special space that you just know might. Spark some creativity or introspection in some way. we need those shake up sometimes. And it's also just back to variety. I mean, I'm always gonna be a fan of novelty. It's part of the research about a life well lived, about shaking up our routines that dull us. And my gosh, if you wanna live wider and deeper, go somewhere. Make it a, double whammy win. You know, reflecting like on a personal retreat with your review. And somewhere that makes you feel excited, even if it's, I guess it could be at the local bar. you? Do you, but wherever it is for your inspiration.

CODY: 51:16

And there's so much more I wish to cover, but I also wanna respect your time, and I know that you've mentioned this concept of workshops. So where can listeners go, whether it's going to Amazon to go buy your book, or if it's a workshop that they can attend to get some personal training.

Jodi: 51:34

Oh, well I love you for asking that. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, the book is available in, you know, Amazon. Walmart, Barnes and Noble, target, et cetera. so by all means thank you. You only die once. And then for workshops, we can reach out on my website. You know, I work with organizations, associations, groups, to plan something that helps to really get people thinking in ways that kind of like what we're talking about today, waking up to life in a way that, ugh, we'll just let it pass us by otherwise. So let's not make that happen. Yeah. But on 4,000 mondays.com Thanks.

CODY: 52:05

I love that. I love the website. Jody, thank you for being on the podcast.

Jodi: 52:09

I'm really grateful to be here. Thanks for having me.