Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Vicki: I had a really meaningful walk with a friend one day who I was trying to convince to quit her job, and there was like definitely an aha moment where I was explaining these biases to her. I was explaining sort of like what might be at play 'cause she was really trying to quit and she just couldn't like bring herself to quit

[00:00:21] CODY: Mind.

[00:00:21] CODY: Hack is a podcast about the psychology of performance, behavior change, and self optimization. Each episode explores how to think better, work smarter, and lives more intentionally through conversations with top thinkers, entrepreneurs, and scientists.

[00:00:42] CODY: Welcome to The Mind Hack podcast where we explore the psychology of self-improvement and mindset to help you live a happier and more fulfilled life. You know, we're always looking for better answers on life. How to find more success, more happiness, more meaning. But what if we're approaching this whole thing [00:01:00] backward?

[00:01:00] CODY: What if the problem isn't that we haven't found the right answers, but we've been asking the wrong questions? Today I'm joined by Vicki Tan, a product designer whose career spans some of tech's most innovative companies, including Google, Spotify, Headspace. Vicki operates at the fascinating intersection of design, mental health, technology, and human behavior.

[00:01:23] CODY: She's also the author of the cleverly titled book, ask This Book a Question, a book that flips our conventional wisdom upside down by not just challenging us to seek the answers, but to examine the very questions that we're asking in the first place. So if you're ready to shift your perspective and maybe finally find the right answer, then let's dive in.

[00:01:45] CODY: Vicki, welcome to the show.

[00:01:47] Vicki: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

[00:01:51] CODY: So before we dive into your book, I'd love to know more about your journey as a product designer going from Google, Spotify, Headspace, like so many [00:02:00] incredible companies to now writing a book about decision making.

[00:02:04] Vicki: Yeah, I, and you know, can you believe it? I even have work experiences before that. Well, I studied behavioral science. I always start off by saying that in college I studied that I like to joke that I had a pigeon named John, uh, for my behavioral science class, where we, we, you know, put them in the, the Skinner box and taught them how to do little things like turn in a circle.

[00:02:31] Vicki: So that was my origins, just in behavioral science. So I've always found that to be, I don't know, just the most interesting topic. Um, but I graduated during the recession and I, it felt like I, I also don't know what job you would do. If you just had an undergrad in behavioral science. So I, I found it hard to find a job when I graduated, and so I thought about [00:03:00] going back to school.

[00:03:01] Vicki: I ended up working in research labs for a few years just to gain experience. And that meant I was working in hospitals at Stanford University at UCSF, just like facilitating research studies on these fascinating topics like pulmonology, pediatric oncology, like I have a weird wealth of medical knowledge now, um, that people are always surprised about.

[00:03:26] Vicki: But fast forward to living in Silicon Valley, working in research labs. I think you see everyone working in tech, it feels a little envious because it's a different lifestyle to go in and work in a cubicle with Folgers versus to work on a big tech campus, but. I got lucky and a friend referred me into a pretty random position at Google.

[00:03:51] Vicki: I don't even know what it was. Um, but I ended up getting picked for a different position where we were trying to think about how to [00:04:00] hire and how to, um, build teams for long-term success, a type of organizational psychology that Google became more well known for. I think when Lalo Bach wrote his book about, about work, I forgot what it was called.

[00:04:14] Vicki: So while I was at Google, I learned about design and I ended up using my 20% time. Um, I'm not sure if they have it anymore, but I kind of self-taught into design and kind of just jumped from startup to startup every two years. I joke about, um, a two year lease where I, you know, reconsider at the end of two years if this is the right job for me.

[00:04:40] Vicki: Yeah, I, I moved from Google to Lyft. Uh, it was early days. I don't know if you're familiar with Lyft In San Francisco early days they had like pink mustaches. I, I started working there when it was a tip only system with the little balloons that you would set the start and stop or the pickup and drop off and then [00:05:00] moved on to Headspace earlier days two when Andy was still in the office leading group meditations.

[00:05:08] Vicki: For us, that was kind of a special time, I think when, when companies are sub 200 and you can know every single employee. I really liked that period. And then, yeah, I, I kind of, I think I kept searching for more exciting consumer facing opportunities. What I really loved at Headspace was there was a behavioral science team, so I got to, I.

[00:05:34] Vicki: See what it kind of looked like to take what I knew from school, which felt like a long time ago, and then bring it back in towards the design career that I was building. And so that was a really nice pairing where, you know, we were creating onboarding flows or sort of emotional check-in flows that use things like CBT or there's something called the [00:06:00] Circumplex model of emotion that helps you map your emotion on different dimensions.

[00:06:05] Vicki: So it's fun to like actually use that in product design, which, which most designers, I won't say most designers don't do, but we tend to just look at design patterns, design language, and a different set of tools. So after Headspace, I leap there and I actually, um, started working on this book, but more in a picture book format, um, a movable book that was meant to feel almost like a children's book and.

[00:06:34] Vicki: I think it was around then when the pandemic happened and everything kind of lost footing and I ended up losing steam on the book. Uh, and I ended up taking another full-time job at Spotify, which was a great way to find stability during the pandemic. And then when I got laid off from Spotify, I thought, well, no better time than now to pick up the book.

[00:06:58] Vicki: And I was living in New York at the [00:07:00] time and there's just so many people doing their own thing out there. The literary community is out there. And I had a really meaningful walk with a friend one day who I was trying to convince to quit her job. And there was like definitely an aha moment where I was explaining these biases to her.

[00:07:19] Vicki: I was explaining. Sort of like what might be at play. 'cause she was really trying to quit and she just couldn't like bring herself to quit. It wasn't until I sat down and like cooked her this meal of Mao Tofu and kind of told her that when I quit my job, this is what really, whether it was mentally or financially or sort of in terms of decision fatigue that I felt like was what helped me be, uh, on my own for like a year.

[00:07:48] Vicki: Um, that really clicked for her. And that ended up being the core part of the book, which is the stories. So I never imagined writing such a, if you've read some of the stories, they end up [00:08:00] being more personal. I never thought that I would put personal stories into a book about decision making 'cause I'm not so.

[00:08:08] Vicki: Confident to say I've made all the right decisions. And I think I said Lindsay was, my agent was such a instrumental partner in coming up with the book concept. But yeah, just having the reinforcement of someone saying, actually I like reading this little story of yours. So that ended up, yeah, being a little, my second sabbatical after Spotify and then as soon as I turned in the manuscript, writing a book is lonely.

[00:08:33] Vicki: I don't know if you can relate to that, but I ended up getting another tech job, um, where I am now at Pinterest, just because I missed collaborating, was really smart, creative people who are there like to work with you and to bounce ideas off of some. The book is coming out in two weeks and yeah, it's been an a bit of a juggle to try to do full-time [00:09:00] work and kind of PR and marketing.

[00:09:03] Vicki: It's something everybody should try. I

[00:09:05] CODY: think. I love that story. It seems like you've had, you, you went from just focusing on organizational, uh, behavioral science or psychology and then getting into design and then bringing that, that what you've learned about psychology into design. And then I remember, uh, seeing a bit of your talk in relation to Headspace and that just made me think just how instrumental, you know, Headspace trying to have this positive impact on bringing more mindfulness to society.

[00:09:38] CODY: And, uh, you know, Headspace has, has been awarded just in terms of the overall design. And of course we all know that all of these products and companies and apps have their user flows and journeys and, you know, optimizing it. There's something, I remember speaking to a former product designer at Facebook, and one thing that she just really loved is that, you know, [00:10:00] maybe you're just focusing on like colors or you know, a specific page, but you know that your work is going to impact millions and millions of people.

[00:10:08] CODY: It's gonna be seen around the world, even if, if your name's not attached to it. Mm-hmm. And so being able to have that impact. And what you said about bringing the behavioral science into the product design, it's almost like the opposite of, uh, dark patterns, you know, that is kind of, uh, associated where, uh, you intentionally design a product to drive a user to perform an action that's against their self-interest, their their own interest.

[00:10:32] CODY: It's more in line with what the company wants. Um, and so you might see yourself, I, I see what you've been doing is kind of the opposite of that. So I, I just coined this idea of maybe you're like a life designer. I love the, the book in that, you know, it's not just this regular book that's, as we were talking earlier, that it's that you just read in a linear fashion.

[00:10:51] CODY: It's, as you say, this design, like pick your own adventure. And so your book, you argue that we end up spending our [00:11:00] lives like chasing answers to questions when we should really be spending that time finding. What questions should we be asking? So I'd love for you to explain that a little bit more and what you mean by that.

[00:11:14] Vicki: Yeah, and I'll just add one thing to what you said, 'cause I love how you framed. Um, it's always nice to hear what people think you're up to and that that was just the most generous, um, interpretation. If you listen to some of the talks later on, as I get more experience, I really try to advocate for something I call umami metrics.

[00:11:37] Vicki: Like if you know anything about how tech companies make decisions, it's through metrics and this is one of the decision making through lines. And the metrics are all very straightforward. Like, are you active on a daily basis? Are you active on a monthly basis that you know, they call 'em Dao and Mao and are you clicking through, are you making a purchase?

[00:11:58] Vicki: And things like that you can [00:12:00] easily capture, but I don't think are meaningful for people. Are you a subscriber for month after month? I really tried to socialize this idea of a new mommy metric, which is like a little bit more qualitative. Like, it's sort of akin to if somebody was like smart on paper or successful or any other of the like, easy to measure things, but they weren't great to be around or they aren't sort of, they don't have a high EQ or they aren't like, kind or, or sort of contributing to whatever it is their circle is.

[00:12:36] Vicki: And so I tried to make the case, even at Headspace for us to have something like life quality or happiness or satisfaction. 'cause even a company like Headspace, um, at least at the time, didn't have any of those metrics. It was still the, the same one just echoing. I like the idea that like designers can bring more [00:13:00] positivity into product design, at least.

[00:13:03] Vicki: Something like behavioral science to combat some of the dark patterns. But your question was around why should we pay attention more to questions rather than the answers? Will you say it again?

[00:13:14] CODY: Yeah. I mean, it seems like that we have these, these questions in mind and we're just trying to seek the answers.

[00:13:21] CODY: Whether it's just trying to achieve happiness or I'm trying to achieve a certain goal. And yet your book as, as a whole, it seems to argue that instead of focusing on finding answers to questions that that we might already have, that we would be better spent and trying to find out what are the right questions to be asking instead of just focusing our time on seeking the The answers.

[00:13:45] Vicki: Yeah, definitely. And I think this is the part where the biases sort of come in as the background of everything. All of the biases are helping us trying to try to take [00:14:00] action to find certainty to like. Feel clarity in, in a world that feels flooded with information, sensory input, like if you just look around your setting right now, there's, unless you have voice canceling, there's probably so much visual input.

[00:14:21] Vicki: There should be some sound, probably tactile. Like there's so much happening and the way that we can focus in and just be here talking to each other are a type of filtering that our mind is doing. I guess I just feel like we're primed to want to have this like simple clarity of like, okay, this is, this is reality, this is it.

[00:14:46] Vicki: Like give me the answer, give me simplicity so I can sort of rest and be, I don't know, be, be at peace in my certainty. And what that does is it doesn't give you any space to like [00:15:00] examine or understand what is happening automatically. I think there's probably a Viktor Frankl quote about the space in between stimulus and response, but all of that, I would argue mindfulness even kind of tries to get at that.

[00:15:14] Vicki: But the idea that you can live in the space in between where you are and where you wanna be, which might be the answer or certainty or something, I think becoming comfortable with that is acknowledging that like even when you reach the answer that you think is the answer, you may not even be there. So I think that there's so much emphasis on the latter part.

[00:15:36] Vicki: I wanted to help people kind of slow down and appreciate the former part a little bit more.

[00:15:41] CODY: There's some quote that's a great therapist. Doesn't give you the answers, but they ask the right questions. I would love if you, can you, if you can share an example or, or a perspective in relation to what kinds of questions should somebody be asking or what kinds of [00:16:00] things have you seen in your work and focus and study on this that, that people are, where people are getting it wrong?

[00:16:07] Vicki: Yeah, and I, I try to be clear in the book, I don't think there's any wrong questions or right questions, which is why it's, you know, ask this book any question. But what I do try to help you understand is whatever question you've come with, I try to help you expand the texture or the scope or your understanding of that question.

[00:16:35] Vicki: So you might have come with a simple. Yes or no question, should I, yes or no? Quit my job, should I move to whatever city should I adopt a dog? And a lot of what we were talking about in the introduction, kind of trying to prime you to go one level or two levels or even three levels [00:17:00] beyond that question to try to interrogate like, well, if this was a straightforward thing for you, you wouldn't be here with the question kind of stuck or ruminating on it.

[00:17:13] Vicki: And so, yeah, the first part of the book is about expanding, like this understanding of the question. And it could be by the end of those pages, you do have a different question, but I don't. Have a strong point of view on if there's right or wrong questions. I think if it's something you're struggling with, then it's perfectly valid.

[00:17:33] CODY: Perhaps if I were, if I were to, to, to tag onto your, to your example of if somebody's asking themselves, should I quit my job? They might default to, well, uh, I'm not getting enough money that maybe I, maybe I think I, I deserve more money, or I can, I can get more money elsewhere. Or maybe there's some aspect about the social environment that they might not like.

[00:17:53] CODY: But maybe if, if I were to look at this, it would be perhaps, what's an inverse question? How would I feel if [00:18:00] I continued to have this job in five years? What is the, the meta component of this question? What is the underlying feeling that's causing me to even ask this question of should I quit my job? I suppose in one way, I think that what you're advocating in, in the book as a whole is trying to be kind of multi-dimensional, uh, or multimodal, I think is another word here if you have a, is teaching a person that if you have a question to then ask yourselves what are the surrounding questions?

[00:18:31] CODY: And I know that, and before we started this recording, you showed me this, this brilliant Figma page that just showed the amount of intense dedication and worth that you put into designing this user journey and this flow of the book. I think in one way it's, it's looking at these big questions that we end up having come, coming through our lives.

[00:18:51] CODY: Should I marry this person? Is this person right for me? Is this job right? Uh, is this, is this the right thing for me? And being able to [00:19:00] step back and ask, what are the related questions to this before, just trying to dig into that main one.

[00:19:07] Vicki: Yeah, exactly. And, and I guess that's the first step of slowing down, which is expanding the question.

[00:19:14] Vicki: It is a classic double diamond in design, which is, you know, there's something you wanna solve. You kind of go broad first before you narrow in. I won't say selfishly, but selfishly, I ask you to do that, to prime you for what the rest of the book is trying to do, which is teach you about cognitive bias without.

[00:19:38] Vicki: That broadening part. I think if I just shot you over, if your question was should I quit my job and I shot you over to the sunk cost effect, or um, something to do with mental accounting, if it's the money you're concerned with or, you know, I could probably list off if it's money [00:20:00] versus time versus coworkers, I could probably send you to a bias straight away.

[00:20:05] Vicki: But it would mimic that interaction that I told you about with my friend where I was just trying to tell her the information and it wasn't landing because it's not the information that changes behavior. It's like this emotional resonance. It's something really clicking with where someone is in their life in that moment.

[00:20:28] Vicki: And so I kind of felt like if I could expand that, like first help someone like loosen this question. They've probably thought a lot about already, like it's probably stuck because, or they're struggling with it because there's no easy answer. And so if I presume that I have, like, there's no way I could, I could answer everyone's question, um, right off the bat.

[00:20:52] Vicki: And in fact, you'll notice that in the book, I don't really use, I, I think I don't use the word answer a single time or the word [00:21:00] right. Um, because it's not really about that. You know, I forget who the quote is from, but it's some guy who is talking about how he has a task to do. It's like mailing an envelope.

[00:21:12] Vicki: And he, he goes on this long journey in New York City as he's, he's walking to the post office and all the things that happen on the way. Of course, in a big city like that, he runs into someone, he sees this thing, he does that. And the journey he takes is why he's running that errand or something. He phrases it in a different way, but I, I kind of like that idea, which is like.

[00:21:34] Vicki: Your question is just like this starting point that we can begin a larger conversation and getting to the answer is sort of, I don't wanna say the book won't give you an answer, but the answer isn't the end point. It's everything along the way. And if you're kind of leaning into that, if you're.

[00:21:55] Vicki: Luxuriating in everything you're learning, you might just let, let go of the [00:22:00] idea of reaching the answer, or maybe you'll come into knowing like the direction you should go.

[00:22:05] CODY: I, I kind of just had like something a a little light bulb pop in my head when you were mentioning, um, your friend and, you know, having this, this question sha she quit her job and you were giving her the answer.

[00:22:16] CODY: And I think we've all had this experience where we have a close friend or family member experiencing some kind of emotional distress or pain, and then we default to wanting to give them the answer, right? Because it's, it's super easy to give somebody else the answer when there's no consequence to the end result on you.

[00:22:35] CODY: And yet we find that they're always super unhelpful. And now we have, uh, things where relational science is teaching us like, like Gottman, uh, that, uh, you know, you should be asking, well, do you want to be, if you're truing, uh, or, or giving your significant other, some kind of motion to trust. Do you want validation or do you want them to help you resolve it?

[00:22:56] CODY: And like, 90% of the time, we just want validation. We just [00:23:00] wanna feel heard. And what I find interesting is that, so I, I went to South by Southwest here in Austin recently, and, you know, I've seen tons of talks and a lot of, a lot of the, the speakers that they'll give like free templates and things that they're trying to answer for somebody.

[00:23:16] CODY: But yet I always kind of feel turned off by, um, by some of these talks because they're trying to give people answers. Answers that they've come up with in trying to solve their own problems. And yet we aren't like cookie cutters. Uh, just because somebody is giving me, uh, 100 questions to ask myself about growing my YouTube channel or, uh, you know, like, here, here's the proper structure and how to create a hook.

[00:23:39] CODY: Um, it doesn't mean that that's really gonna be applicable and help, help solve my own problem. But what I want to get to is actually that the way that we respond to friends is that we shouldn't be answering their questions outright. If they really want help, we should be asking ourselves, Hmm, what's the, what's a better question for them to be asking [00:24:00] themselves?

[00:24:00] CODY: Because we can never convince somebody that we have the answer, or that if they have an opinion, we have a different opinion. Just arguing outright is not gonna change their opinion, and we all know that, but yet we still do it. And what the, the psychology indicates that we should be asking the question so that they can ask themselves these questions and then they can come up with an answer and perhaps that answer is more in line with, it's gonna help guide them.

[00:24:30] CODY: And so all of that is like a long-winded way of saying that I like this concept of, say, looking at your book as like a friend, because a friend should ask the right questions and help lead you to those questions. And I think that's exactly what your book does.

[00:24:47] Vicki: Oh, that is, I, I love that. I do feel like at some point I tried to phrase it like a warm and wise friend, and I think it's different to be a smart friend or just a, a comforting friend, but to be warm and [00:25:00] wise kind of in combination, I think describes what you are talking about.

[00:25:05] Vicki: You don't wanna have to be someone's therapist friend, but to. Return with a thoughtful question. I mean, one, it takes the burden off of you, but two, it it, it gives your friend the chance to think about like, Hmm, what, like, is there something, is my intuition off? Like, do I not have the support of my family and friends?

[00:25:27] Vicki: There's one section called Blockers in the first part of the book that I feel like if you, if you needed like a, a quick six question sort of go-to for, for responding to friends, I feel like that's a really tidy set. Something you said about like sort of these templates or worksheets for answers reminds me of the survivorship bias, which is like, just because it worked for them, it doesn't mean it's going to work for you because our, our world, [00:26:00] aside from this one moment that they're talking about, I forgot what the example was, but.

[00:26:05] Vicki: It's completely different. Like it's, and so the, the idea that we would think like this template works for you, um, would work, kind of plug and play is just, is kind of a fascinating trick of the mind in that like, we want it to, we want, again, we want there to be like this easy thing for, for you and I to plug and play.

[00:26:26] Vicki: And maybe there is on TikTok, but like, maybe there is in some situations where you can like, follow a template. I think it speaks to like, you know, imagine, um, someone in their interior world, everything they see throughout the day, it's just colored by those glass. Imagine someone's like farsighted and imagine you're nearsighted, right?

[00:26:49] Vicki: It's just a, a completely different world. Or imagine you're tall and I'm short, like the literal vantage point you have on the world. If you've ever been to a show and you're [00:27:00] short, you can't see anything. Um. And so I always try to remember that, which is like, if I am giving you advice at this concert or you're giving me advice at this concert and you're super tan and you're like, just look to the right, and I'm like, I can't see anything.

[00:27:16] Vicki: It sort of reminds me of what you were saying, which is like, yeah, you might as well, I think it's, you're, it would be good to remember something like that that's easy to bring to mind. Something quite tangible, like someone's height or, or something to remind you that like everyone's interior state is quite different and it's shaped by a lifetime, um, of experiences.

[00:27:40] CODY: The amount it, it made me think in a broader context of the, the amount of searching that we tend to do as humans for our individual problems. I could just think of like, the easy one is like how to get rich. You know, you type that into Google and you'll see all these, all these people with [00:28:00] books and courses trying to sell you their concept of how to get rich, how to make money.

[00:28:06] CODY: And yet it's, it's very rare that I've heard of anybody really being able to, like if you, if you end up, I bought the amount of thousand dollar course, I bought so many thousand dollar courses in my lifetime, and yet I can't think of any that have actually helped me to get to where I'm at. And I think a part of that is our desire, our natural tendency towards, towards finding answers and not really asking ourselves, why do we have, why do we desire this in the first place?

[00:28:34] CODY: And I, I think that's, that's really in a sense, what the, what I sense that your book is really getting to is, is going back to this is what is the question we should be asking? Is it how to get rich? Is it, why do I want to make money? Is it solving some other emotional need that I have? Is it, is it a childhood trauma?

[00:28:58] CODY: And then perhaps working [00:29:00] on that instead of just trying to make money. I mean, money is nice and all, but if your desire to make money is wrapped up in an emotional trauma, at least like mine was, you're gonna make money, a ton of money that you won't know what to do with it, and you're still gonna be broken inside, you know?

[00:29:19] CODY: And so I think that goes back to that, making sure that we're asking the right questions, because there is not gonna be any guru that you will ever find that is going to give you the answers that you're seeking. And that's really what I love about your book. Um, it's, it's aware that I give somebody so much praise on the podcast, but it, it really, uh, like the concept of even, of even your book, uh, of the, the fact that.

[00:29:44] CODY: You know, ask this book any question, and it's not trying to give you an answer. And I just, I just really love that perspective.

[00:29:51] Vicki: Thank you for all the, yeah, this is, it's so nice to hear. And I wasn't sure if it would make people feel disappointed because, you know, [00:30:00] most of the books out there do claim to give you something, an answer away, like six easy steps.

[00:30:08] Vicki: You know what I mean? That's like t typically you, you need like a hook like that. But what I was really trying to channel was something a little more playful, a little more, uh, not magical, but it, it did need to feel in contrast to the seriousness of the topic of cognitive bias. Like, I saw that people were in decision making in life decisions.

[00:30:37] Vicki: Just like, think about the last three friends that came to you with a question. Then think about how they ended up making that decision. I felt like I saw like, okay, we got the spreadsheet people they're doing like something, something on a document, whether it be lists or scoring things or using one of those frameworks you kind of talked about.

[00:30:59] Vicki: And then there were [00:31:00] the people who were just talk, like sort of surveying all their friends, kind of maybe taking a little census of like, what would you do? Oh, you've done this, what would you do? And kind of like trying to offload the decision but also get advice. And I think even on the very end of that spectrum, especially in certain cities, you have people and I think in this world with so much uncertainty, so much like stuff happening that feels kind of existential, more and more people turning to like astrology or tarot, like even more sort of squishy, floaty.

[00:31:40] Vicki: Ways to make decisions. I just felt like, gosh, could I take the more evidence-based, I don't wanna say it's more, I thought it was more rigorous in terms of human behavior and put that into the more gushy format. Not, not a fully [00:32:00] bait and switch, but just to make it easier for people to use, which is what my job is as a designer.

[00:32:05] Vicki: To make it easier for you to do X thing, get a ride, find the music you love, like find inspiration. So I'm glad that it feels like a little bit different, but also approachable is what I'm reading or hearing in between what you're saying. Um, because that was the hope that it wouldn't be. So it would be a blend of these two things that exist in the world but haven't existed in relationship to each other like that.

[00:32:34] CODY: And so you take this approach from. The of, of understanding that we're in a society now where it seems like people are looking more abstractly to, whether it's the universe, whether it's tarot. What's the specific hour and day that you were born? I think I met somebody who, who's, uh, who practices like human-centric design or something, and then they ask me like, okay, what's your birthday?

[00:32:58] CODY: What hour? Do you know what hour [00:33:00] you were born? And then it supposedly maps out your entire personality. And then you can use that as like a metric for, you know, answering questions and what your life path is. And it's fascinating that we're having more and more of these, these aspects that people search for to help them kind of solve, solve these issues.

[00:33:18] CODY: I find it interesting now that, especially with the rise of ai, um, you know, I find myself asking if I have a problem, I ask myself, what would AI do? What, what would Chad GPT say? Uh, and I find even like the, the fact that I've used it is I end up getting this concept of asking, of knowing what it would tell me, and then kind of using that as a metric to guide me.

[00:33:39] CODY: But in your book, you take this approach of helping the user determine what, what's question they want to be asking, and then leading them to, in some sense, a cognitive bias or fallacy, as you mentioned. And I'm sure you've read the very dense book, uh, thinking Fast, thinking Slow by Daniel Kahneman and Amos Dki.[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] CODY: The first time I read that book, I mean it probably took me three months. Of reading it every day, but I mean, my mind was blown. It's like the Holy Bible of behavioral economics and that as I understand, they were, they were two of really like the first psychologists to really understand and map out. What are all of these valids and biases that we're subject to that we're not even aware of?

[00:34:23] CODY: And I think probably one of the most famous one that most people are aware of is, uh, a fundamental attribution error where when somebody does something, we tend to attribute whatever they do to their personality rather than circumstance, but say. If we cut somebody off in traffic, it's because we're late.

[00:34:41] CODY: We're, we're late to work. Right. But if somebody else cuts us off, they're an asshole and we don't like that person. Right. And so I am curious, how did you come up with this concept of putting people on this, this track of having the question and then leading them to what's the [00:35:00] relevant fallacy or bias?

[00:35:01] CODY: And to One little final thought on that is that I remember is that, uh, Daniel Kahneman stating that even though that they mapped out their fallacies and biases, they were still sub subject to them. So even having the awareness of them doesn't mean that you're immune, um, to, to them at the same time.

[00:35:18] Vicki: That's the crux of it. And you know, you'll notice that I take care to not say, this book will help you eliminate bias or delete whatever, like insert insert verb there. It's very much about sort of like if you've, if you've done therapy or any sort of psychotherapy, you know how there's like the exile parts or your shadow side or even traits that you might be embarrassed about.

[00:35:45] Vicki: But the way to sort of best work with those is to fully integrate them. Like, so if you are, I don't know, what's an example if you're scared of, or perhaps maybe you're [00:36:00] worried about being embarrassed, so you act a certain way to overcome that. Like to truly face that embarrassment, you need to like listen to the part of you that is like, what part of you is like really, really ashamed about that.

[00:36:13] Vicki: Like what could happen there. I wanted to. Do that with bias because I feel like there are also these like mental patterns that get us through our days, like what I was talking about, about our environment or every single decision we have to make in any moment. I feel like bias is this like unsung hero.

[00:36:33] Vicki: It gets a lot of negative press or negative connotation, but without it, we'll be stuck. I'm sure you learned in the book like we would be paralyzed with information overload, decision overload, and we would literally be frozen in place. And so the idea that like these things have gotten us through, whether it's evolution or our day and we're kind of trying to be [00:37:00] like, Ugh, like we're trying to get rid of them.

[00:37:02] Vicki: I really wanted to. Help us like notice. So if it's the fundamental attribution error, the example you use, if, um, Daniel Kahneman, I actually dunno what he would say about this since he's since passed, but like, yes, he's aware of it. Yes, he cannot fully avoid it, but what would happen if he took the knowledge of fundamental attribution error and leaned into it?

[00:37:30] Vicki: So the next time he met someone or noticed someone doing something like he doubled down on in traffic, he created a whole story about where that person was going or something. I think there's really interesting things you can do with the knowledge of the bias differently than just storing it away as a fact.

[00:37:53] Vicki: And so, as you'll see in the spreads, I really try to expand them maybe in a way that a social scientist [00:38:00] who did the research could not, may be true to the research. As a designer who is human centered, like end person centered, I think it's really interesting 'cause I feel the agency to like, okay, this is a thing.

[00:38:15] Vicki: Like let me stretch it in all sorts of ways and think about like if you put it on backwards, if you put it on upside down, like this is, this is how you could use it. And um, that's how those bias spreads work. Similar to like, when you pull a tarot card, there's nothing wrong or right about, I actually don't know tarot that well, but like a nine of swords or the queen card or whatever.

[00:38:41] Vicki: They, they are open to interpretation and I really wanted that. For each bias, I wanted you to think, huh, what, what could this mean in this moment?

[00:38:50] CODY: You kind of gave me an answer without giving me the answer, but if, if I go back to that example of person cutting, cutting me off in traffic, and I think if you [00:39:00] understand that this is something that happens, that we tend to blame that person.

[00:39:05] CODY: We see what they did as a character flaw and ours as circumstantial, then in that moment I might recognize that I don't know the circumstance that led this person to cut me off, so I should not assume that it's because that they're a bad person. I've actually unintentionally kind of done that more as I've grown and become an adult.

[00:39:30] CODY: There's aspects where we, or situations where, you know, our, our prefrontal cortex just shuts down and our amygdala just takes over and we end up in that fight or flight mode. If somebody does something that sets us. And that can be really hard for us to, to take the knowledge of the, of the fallacies and biases into an account.

[00:39:48] CODY: But if we try to practice this as a practice, then I think that can allow us to recognize that. I shouldn't overreact in this way. Or if somebody does something to us [00:40:00] that feels off and we don't like that person, we can take a step back. And in some ways I would comfort myself by saying, oh, well they have a childhood trauma and so I forgive that person.

[00:40:10] CODY: I try to back, back off, uh, assuming that they're a bad person,

[00:40:16] Vicki: what is going on in their interior that caused them to react that way?

[00:40:20] CODY: Just to add on to that, there's these other biases as well, like, uh, yeah, you mentioned egocentric bias in the book where we tend to overestimate our own perspective while we discount others, other views.

[00:40:34] CODY: So maybe we become aware that I tend to put more weight into my belief or my opinion, rather than the opinion of somebody else, because I know what I know and I don't know what they don't know and what they do know. And so you're going to put more weight into your own belief. Or attentional bias where we tend to focus on things that, that stand out to us and that that becomes a center of our attention.

[00:40:58] CODY: So I don't have a specific [00:41:00] example for that, but um, I think you're onto something in that if we become aware of our fallacies and biases, they may not always be able to help us in every circumstance, but it can change, it can shift our, our thinking.

[00:41:14] Vicki: Yeah. And I think to your examples there, what I think is a, a broader change that I think will happen, I hope will happen isn't that you sitting in traffic will remember.

[00:41:27] Vicki: Maybe you will like best case scenario. You remember to do that in the moment. I feel like that could be more therapy of being. Generous and empathetic. But what I hope is that in other situations versus like a reaction to a situation where it's true, your gut, your knee jerk might just happen anyway. It could be that in a different situation you're leading with the perspective of the fund.

[00:41:54] Vicki: Like now that you've understood that knowledge, it's a different situation where perhaps it's a positive [00:42:00] one. Like, wow, that person really went out of their way to do something nice for me. It wasn't that they were just having a good day, but they are a genuinely nice person. Or something like, it could be just like you noticing something not happening to you and you thinking they must be in a rush.

[00:42:20] Vicki: I think it's, um, a more interesting example to think about how your behavior might change. More passively in this proactive way than hoping that it will always change in the reactive way, because I feel like you could be let down because those are the hardest moments.

[00:42:38] CODY: I wanted to, to move on into something that is a common, uh, fallacy.

[00:42:44] CODY: I don't know if there's a name for it, but we tend to, to put a lot of weight into external changes like, uh, having a new job, a new city or relationship as a means of solving deeper problems, but they really rarely ever [00:43:00] seem to solve these problems. Uh, and so I'm curious why we tend to, to lean on external changes rather than internal.

[00:43:09] CODY: And I, I wonder if this is where your, your dog, uh, Charlie, uh, might, might be relevant

[00:43:15] Vicki: for everyone listening who probably hasn't read the Charlie story. It's a little. Story about this big guy here. Um, he's 125 pound great Pyrenees, which, um, for those of you who can't see the video, it's a big white, fluffy dog that resembles a polar bear.

[00:43:36] Vicki: Some people have said, um, or Falco, some people say. Um, and the story is about how, um, around the same time I think post pandemic, maybe a lot of people were itching for change, but I moved to New York City, um, in the exact way that you talked about hoping for kind of like a life [00:44:00] reset or like an overhaul, a vibe shift, whatever you wanna call it.

[00:44:04] Vicki: Um, but during the pandemic, I had also adopted Charlie. Um, and a lot of people adopt dogs. I don't know if they think it will be life changing, especially, um, if it's an average sized dog. And I, you know, the story goes into it. In a little bit more detail, but I sort of found that like, yes, moving to New York is a big change.

[00:44:27] Vicki: People that are so different, um, the cities are, you know, if you've been to both, like the cities are quite different, very nature based versus very loud, I don't know, arts and culture base. And despite all of that, like, you know what they say, like wherever you go there you are. It's like I was still me in New York City and whatever I was hoping to leave was still there.

[00:44:55] Vicki: And it was actually me adopting Charlie, um, who [00:45:00] happens to be a very big sort of eye-catching dog. Um, and it wasn't specifically my bond with Charlie, although that is meaningful. And I think anyone who has a dog, the Dogist, or if you've read like a. My Fr The Friend by Sigrid Nunez, she talks about her relationship with her dog.

[00:45:21] Vicki: Those are all meaningful. But for me it was that every time I walk, Charlie, I have to talk to like 10 strangers about the same five questions. Like, and it'll be, wow, is that a dog or a polar bear? And then they'll say, what kind is he? And then they'll say, how much does he weigh? And then it'll be like the same series of questions because they, it's he's, he looks like, he looks like that.

[00:45:48] Vicki: Like you would have you, I would ask that if it were me. And, um, I talk about this in the story, but the repetition of having to answer that day over day, whether I was [00:46:00] on a phone call, whether it was first thing in the morning, whether it was raining, usually not raining, but like. If I was in a bad mood or if I was in a good mood, I was with other people in a rush, like I'm always having to answer these questions using that as like a, um, almost like a centering or an um, a neutralizing, like a great sort of neutralizer to be like, oh yeah, they are seeing Charlie for the first time and he is big.

[00:46:30] Vicki: I have just gotten used to it always helped to like pull me out of however far I've gotten along in my own mental, like rabbit hole of my day, my life, my whatever, stuff to be like, oh yeah, we're here on the street walking a dog who looks like a polar bear. It's San Francisco or New York. And these people are full humans with questions and they wanna know about this dog.

[00:46:56] Vicki: Um, and that like daily change. [00:47:00] The lesson of the story, there was a couple of them. But the idea that if you can make a change in your life, it could be a move that elicits a daily change like that, that pulls you out of your interior space, that kind of forces you to reckon with like, what's going on in here.

[00:47:18] Vicki: I think that's, that's much more meaningful than simply up and moving to New York and then flopping down in a similar apartment in a similar neighborhood 'cause you like certain things and hang out with certain people. Um, that's what I found.

[00:47:33] CODY: You said it well in that I, we often seek to change our environment and, and I think it feels exciting to move into a new city or having a new job and you know, you get all that dopamine because you don't really know what to expect.

[00:47:46] CODY: It's like pressing a reset button and yet it's like the baggage still comes with us. Right. And I think what you're proposing is that. Real growth, uh, in, in improving our [00:48:00] problems and situation isn't really running away, but it's trying to face honestly what we've been avoiding on the inside.

[00:48:10] Vicki: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think you can absolutely do that when you move.

[00:48:14] Vicki: I would just be intentional about, you know, giving some thought to, with, with this big change, what can I like, sort of bundle with that to make sure my day to day changes. Um, and it could be the people you interact with, it could be your job or the, the type of street you live on. But I would then try to hone into the, the daily rituals, um, the details.

[00:48:41] Vicki: 'cause those are what's going to come up so frequently. But one other thing about the Charlie story is that I can't remember exactly how many biases were in that story, but of course there was something about the ego. Egocentricity bias, egocentric bias, um, [00:49:00] the fundamental attribution error and things like that.

[00:49:03] Vicki: But instead of telling the story about traffic, uh, and driving, I didn't wanna just tell a story about one bias. I wanted to tell a human story that you would hopefully remember and you would in intuitively connect with. And then I wanted you to sort of reverse map or understand or dig deeper into the biases separately.

[00:49:31] Vicki: And I don't know why that was so important for me. I just feel like the canonical examples of bias, like you've heard the world work to fighter jets being shot down. Like I feel like when people talk about survivorship bias, they always talk about the jets that returned home with all the bullets in them.

[00:49:50] Vicki: It's like, what am I going to do with that if it's, that's sort of like the, the template answer. Um, and I, I kind of purposely [00:50:00] made that connection more opaque. So you wouldn't just, even in the Charlie story, say, don't, just, not to say you should adopt a big dog. It asks you to then go from here and make it fit for you.

[00:50:13] Vicki: And so, again, like, maybe it's the designer in me, but I really wanted to start with like, there's a kernel in each of these stories. I'm not saying you should just plug and play that, but like, really take the time to try to, like kernel was maybe the wrong seed. Like plant that seed and then see what grows from there.

[00:50:35] CODY: Right. And, and I think what as a, as a overarching philosophy here is that tiny, uh, like, uh, rituals, habits, they, they make a massive impact on our overall life. We don't really think about on a day-to-day, uh, perspective. I know there's, there's authors like James Clear who wrote Atomic Habits and his, his whole thing is that, you know, these tiny [00:51:00] habits can lead to massive life shifts over time.

[00:51:03] CODY: Um, and I know in your book you also mentioned Rick Rubin, who's this huge on rituals as a means of providing clarity and purpose. And I think too often we look at trying to solve these, these big questions or trying to get these answers to these things that are kind of bothering us without really asking yourselves, are there like some little tiny things that I can do in my day that could perhaps lead me down the path that I'm looking to go down that aren't, um, so jarring as to be emotionally stressful of trying to make a big decision that we stress out on.

[00:51:41] Vicki: Mm-hmm. You could even think of them as little experiments. Um, and I know it doesn't feel as satisfying to be like, okay, today I'm gonna take a different route. But like, you would be surprised if you're paying attention. Um, in the question section, this [00:52:00] exactly what you said is why I wanted to create those two spectrums.

[00:52:04] Vicki: You might, uh, in the timing section, you might have seen there was a girl kind of, I don't actually know what the one end, it might just be her head and you can kind of see that she's rushing towards the end of the spectrum. And the spectrum is, is it an eventual question or is it urgent? And the other one is, is it every day or once in a lifetime?

[00:52:25] Vicki: And you'll end up seeing these two by two by twos, um, like little four, these four boxes that you get when you combine the two spec, the two spectrums and. I think that we spend a lot of time, exactly like you said on the two ends of the spectrum, urgent and once in a lifetime. And I think that what that means is we overlook the other ends of like eventual or every day.

[00:52:54] Vicki: And so the things that happen every day, like we spend a lot of time [00:53:00] eating meals, we spend a lot of time perhaps on our phone or watching tv or even just like spending money. Like we might think of how can I make this big career change? But we don't think about how do I spend my small bits of money or time each day and to help people make that association that that is the same question.

[00:53:24] Vicki: That's exactly what the question flow is doing. Like, okay, you're out here, like, let's bring it back to here because. People then get paralyzed in like the vastness, the bigness of the question. And then it has to be like the perfect time or the perfect place to then take that big leap.

[00:53:42] CODY: And so on. On this, this last perspective, I, I want to, or this last theme I'd like to explore in relation to these questions that, you know, we're, that we're asking what is the way that we should be asking ourselves these questions?

[00:53:56] CODY: And I say that in relation to like, is it [00:54:00] journaling? Because I know a lot of people struggle to even sit with a question long enough to even like, let it ponder or let it stew. Uh, so I I Are you a proponent of journaling and writing things down?

[00:54:16] Vicki: Yeah, I think journaling can be hard. I think it just depends on what works for you.

[00:54:21] Vicki: So if you find yourself drawn towards journaling, perhaps you identify as more of an introvert. I think some people, you know, journaling is just a conversation with yourself. I want folks to use the book in, in relationship with other people, and there's a card deck, a companion card deck that's coming out with it to, to kind of encourage you to use it in that way.

[00:54:47] Vicki: But one reason why I think it's important to use it with someone else, and it could be just anybody, it doesn't have to be like a close friend. In fact, um, it could be helpful to use [00:55:00] it with someone who you don't feel strongly like see eye to eye with, just because everyone's biases are different. And I feel like I've heard this metaphor during covid for PPE.

[00:55:16] Vicki: I kind of think it's a good metaphor for biases where the Swiss cheese method, I think what they were describing is that if you layer a bunch of Swiss cheese slices, the individual holes in each slice will even out. So hopefully you don't have like something sliding through with biases. It's the same thing, like if we talk about a situation like, should I quit my job or should I move the perspectives that you have because of exactly what we were talking about, your whole lifetime of experiences and your biased point of view will just be different than mine.

[00:55:53] Vicki: And so you can have a conversation with yourself that is good. You can start there to, to feel clear on your [00:56:00] own, like this is where I'm beginning, but if you can talk it over with someone and, and stay quite open to the questions that they're asking back, I do feel like you'll get to. A whole different place rather than kind of, there's like a local maxima that you hit of your own understanding.

[00:56:21] CODY: Right? And, and I think that's also just the, the incredible, uh, power of AI that we have. And I think we're, we're in this era. I mean, we have AI and it's, it's capable of so much. And yet I think the knowledge about what you can use AI for, and I think it, it's easy if, if you have a job and you're able to think about, oh, let me ask Chad JPT this question that's specific about my job, right?

[00:56:47] CODY: And you, you form that narrow connection of relying on AI for that. And I personally found, uh, chat gt to be incredibly useful as a mentor. And I've even [00:57:00] uploaded all of my, my, my journals, uh, for the past 10 years. And I've, I've journaled like every week at a very consistent journaling method where every day I use this app called exist.io.

[00:57:11] CODY: I rate my day one through a nine, and then I say generally what happened? And then at the end of the week, I do this weekly reflection and I import everything that happened in that week. And then I ask myself, what are the emotional scars? What are the, the things that that, that bring something up? Is it negative?

[00:57:31] CODY: Is it positive? And then I kind of go into that, and then I'm able to use AI as a means of analyzing that from a different angle. And part of the, the template that I have, it I give to me are what are, what are questions that I should ask myself that I'm, I haven't thought to ask myself about the experiences over the past week.

[00:57:55] CODY: And I found that to be incredibly profound at shifting my own [00:58:00] perspective. I. And so I think you, you mentioned journaling and your book, and maybe it's also talking with a friend and maybe I think there's this incredible power of, of being able to use AI as a means of, of helping you, uh, in the same way understand what questions you should be asking.

[00:58:19] Vicki: Yes, absolutely. And I love that example of AI because the way I like to think about what role or space can AI fill in my life is what am I bad at and what is AI good at versus things that I'm already good at. I, you know, yeah, sure. It can replace Google or Yeah, sure. It can book the restaurant for me, as often you see in the ads, it's like doing all your online chores.

[00:58:49] Vicki: It's like, okay, sure, but what is that getting back? What is that getting me back? Um. I spend more time on my phone, you know, like, um, I love this [00:59:00] idea of like, AI can process or has this bird's eye view, or it doesn't get tired of like, reading walls of text. Like, not to say your journal entries are walls of text, but it can, it can do this really well and give you the vantage point that you wouldn't be able to do because, um, you're, you like, you're a human.

[00:59:20] Vicki: Um, and I, and I also feel like most people overlook the like, uh, intentionality of prompting with like, this is the role you're gonna take or these are the things you should know to begin with. Because then it's so powerful, it's so intentional. It's not just like, what I worry that's gonna happen in decision making with um, gen AI is that people will just offload one and done.

[00:59:52] Vicki: Like, should I. Any of the questions you would ask the book, should I quit my job? And then it might, you know, it might give you some questions back. [01:00:00] It might give you some considerations, but it doesn't show you everything else outside the little lens that it, it has been sort of programmed to show. So I'm really excited about, like, how can people say, do exactly what you are doing, or take something from my book and then be in conversation with AI to really extend that.

[01:00:26] Vicki: Um, I think that's much more meaningful than just like, Hey, Chachi, bt tell me what to do in this situation. Tell me what I should consider.

[01:00:36] CODY: And, and I think, uh, not to undermine, uh, your book, which, or any book for that matter, uh, because reading is like exercise for the mind and just using ai, I mean, there's already been studies showing that we're, we're having a drop in critical thinking and an ability to problem solve for ourselves when we're becoming overly reliant on ai.

[01:00:58] CODY: And even though [01:01:00] maybe two years ago there was this whole thing about prompt engineering that was super big and then, you know, okay, there's that. But then there is this other argument made that, well, in two years AI's gonna be so good, that prompt, you won't need a prompt engineer. It will just understand what you need and give you what you want.

[01:01:17] CODY: And that's turned out thus far to not be true. That the, the value of the output you can get from AI is a hundred percent determined on the value of the input that you give it. And in order to give it the right input, you have to know what questions to ask it. And that is incredibly important. And I think that's one thing that your book teaches us, is to know what questions should we be asking ourselves?

[01:01:40] CODY: Should we be asking our friends, should we be asking AI for that matter?

[01:01:44] Vicki: Yeah. And if we can front load all of our thought in the first part, like whatever you would cut, like priming the table mis and pass and let AI do all the hard work even better. But I, I think we should not overlook exactly [01:02:00] what you were saying, the critical thinking that goes into what are you going to ask this incredibly powerful machine to do.

[01:02:09] Vicki: And in design we kind of think of it as like creative direction or art direction. Like we may be doing less of like the rote task of designing the features or executing the actual keystrokes and mouse movements, but becomes even more important to have a. Taste or a point of view or um, style. And I think the version of that I've been thinking about for decision making is, um, knowing what you value, knowing what it means to like, make decisions that are coherent with either who you want to be or what you envision for yourself.

[01:02:47] Vicki: Like so much more should be going into the front loading as you sort of create your prompt template, if you will.

[01:02:56] CODY: On that note, I I, I feel like we probably spent as much time as we [01:03:00] can spend on questions about questions, uh, that can keep a user's interest. Um, and uh, again, I I love the whole premise of, of the book, the title, the Ask this book a question.

[01:03:13] CODY: It's, it's very unique. It's a whole different perspective that I, I think I'm, I'm definitely gonna buy a handful of copies and it's gonna be one of the books that I give out to people who come to me, uh, looking for me to answer questions for them. Uh, but before we wrap up, I'd love to leave listeners or something kind of practical.

[01:03:34] CODY: Uh, if, if someone could walk away from this episode and just ask themselves one meaningful question today, um, say something that, that could change how they see things. Uh, I'm curious, I know it's a, a hard question to answer, but what would you suggest they ask?

[01:03:51] Vicki: I think what the whole book beginning asks is why is this your question?

[01:03:58] Vicki: Like, why are you asking [01:04:00] it? Why are you stuck? Why is this here for you now? Um. So it's kind of an annoying why back, but I think that if you could start to journal about that, if you could. I personally like to doodle about that. Like sometimes words only get you so far. Um, but if you could ask yourself why you even haven't moved on from this question from when it first arrived and you could imagine like filling in a scene of you sitting there, what is everything else around you in that moment?

[01:04:37] Vicki: I think that's a pretty good question. Back to yourself and a place to begin

[01:04:42] CODY: and for our listeners who wanna explore more on Vicki's ideas that her book ask, this book a question will be available on April 8th, 2025, and you can find links to pre-order it along with Vicki's website and social media in the show notes.

[01:04:56] CODY: Or visit her website@vickitan.com. That's [01:05:00] V-I-C-K-I-T-A n.com. Thank you for joining us. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in for another episode of Mind Hack. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing the episode with someone who might benefit from these insights.

[01:05:17] CODY: Until next time. I'm Cody McClain and this has been Mind Hack. Hey guys, this is Cody again. I hope you enjoyed that episode of Mind Hack, and if you're interested in getting more mind hack worthy stuff straight to your inbox, then you might consider signing up for my weekly newsletter. It often contains links to new episodes, blog posts, and other interesting finds I found on the interweb in the past week.

[01:05:42] CODY: It pretty much focuses around productivity and efficiency. So if that's your thing, then be sure to visit my website@codymclean.com. That's M-C-L-A-I n.com to sign up. Also, if there are any interesting websites, companies, books, blog posts, quotes, or [01:06:00] anything else that was mentioned in this episode, you can find it all and more by visiting the official website for the Mind Hack show@mindhack.com.

[01:06:09] CODY: And as always, if you have any feedback, good or bad, I want to hear it, send me a tweet, email, or what have you on either of my websites. Sites as my goal with this show is to give you the maximum value in the shortest amount of time. That's all for now, guys. Thanks again for listening, and I'll catch you guys again soon.

Vicki Tan

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