Beyond the Trip: Diving Deep into the World of Psychedelic Healing with Matt Zemon | Ep. 065

Episode Transcript

Matt: 0:00

If you're intentional about integrating those things that you saw into your life, that you can really make radical mental and behavioral shifts in that next 30 days. And you can reprogram your mind. To look more towards the positive and you can reprogram your body to not crave some of the things you were craving.

CODY: 0:32

welcome to today's episode, where we have the privilege of diving deep into the world of psychedelics with none other than Matt Zemon. Matt is the author of the groundbreaking book, psychedelics For Everyone, A Beginner's Guide to These Powerful Medicines, anxiety, depression, addiction, PTSD, and Expanding Consciousness. Matt endured trauma at a young age and found healing in these powerful substances since he has dedicated his career to exploring the power of psychedelics on mental health. As the founder of psychable.com, he hired a team of 62 people to hand build a directory of psychedelic, knowledgeable psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, guides, and shamans. In his book and on his website, he combines academic research with a heartfelt passion for the sacred use of these substances, advocating for their safe and informed use. Today we're set to explore the depths of psychedelic therapy, personal transformation, and the future of mental wellness. So without further ado, please welcome Matt Zemon.

Matt: 1:41

Cody, it is good to be here. Thanks for having me on.

CODY: 1:44

So psychedelics have been used for thousands of years in various cultures for spiritual, therapeutic and ritualistic purposes. How have these indigenous cultures historically used psychedelics and their spiritual or medicinal practices?

Matt: 2:01

I love that question because you're coming right off with kind of a, almost a myth in our society. We think about psychedelics as, as maybe the Native Americans using peyote or maybe we grew with school where they're teaching about like the Mayans and the Aztecs and the, Mexicans use of psychedelics. Or maybe we've heard of ayahuasca and the rainforests of, Costa Rica or Peru or Brazil. but you're right, I mean there are cave drawings in Africa that are, I dunno, four to 9,000 years old with mushroom shaman. There are Siberian shaman, there are, witches burned all throughout Europe for their use of psychedelics. the Greeks use them for a couple thousand years, and almost every major religion has a psychedelic component. And I bring that up because we all have a psychedelic lineage. and our governments and our countries have tried to suppress that and have done a pretty good job. We've been in this country 50 years of prohibition, but we do all have a lineage. And here in 2024, we are seeing more and more people get the opportunity to kind of reclaim that and try psychedelics in a medical or decriminalization or a, a ceremonial model. And that's, I think that's beautiful. What a great time to be alive.

CODY: 3:10

A while ago there was a Joe Rogan episode where, or clip where they talk about psychedelics and chimps and this theory of, chimps eating psychedelic, mushrooms and it potentially having a place in our evolution. Do you subscribe to that theory?

Matt: 3:29

I think that's a beautiful, Terence McKenna, came up with that theory, and it's called the stoned Ape theory. And that the chimps or the monkeys trying, psychedelics is where language came from. I don't personally think that's how language evolved. I think it's a, it's a neat concept. and I don't have, lots of reasoning why I think that's good or bad. I've, read some things. It's, uh, that's probably not how language developed, but it's, it is certainly interesting to look at, and I think there's so much we don't know about these medicines. Um, when people talk about mushrooms, I mean, it's just, it's incredible. I, it's incredible. the scale in which they operate. It's incredible. How, how much they share in the and, and how they pass information and nourishment to each other. It's, very difficult to kill the mycelium network. and many people in indigenous cultures and in the psychedelic community believe that there is like an innate wisdom in the mushrooms that is given to us, the consumers, the people who are ingesting it. And I think it's an interesting thing to think about that where did these mushrooms come from and why do they have such an impact on us? and does it go beyond just, oh, it's, it's, it's impacting this particular serotonin receptor? I tend to think it is, but again, it's a, it's a belief, not something that I can prove

CODY: 4:41

Yeah. It, it seems there's that question about why do psychedelics even exist in the first place? And we know so many examples of civilizations and cultures as well as animals who consistently consume psychedelics. And I, know there was a recent research that was just recently published that they found evidence that even the Romans used a psychedelic substance.

Matt: 5:06

Yeah, I mean, we have, almost 2000 years of the Greeks using, in the Eleusinian mysteries, using psychedelics as part of a once in a lifetime ceremony that people were sworn on penalty of death to not reveal the secret. an author Brian, I'm blanking on his last name right now, came out with the immortality key. And his thesis in this, he's a classics, scholar from Brown. His thesis was that, early Christians basically took the knowledge from the Greeks and had underground communions using psychedelics. And it was the power of that direct religious experience that the early Christians felt in those first 400 years that led Christianity to spread in a way that other religions and other sects did not do. so it's a really interesting book. It kind of reads like a, oh, it's, it almost reads like a fiction novel, but it's, fascinating and highly recommended the immortality key

CODY: 5:57

that, reminds me of, I remember various theories on e even Jesus, I mean, we don't have to get directly into Christianity, but that at the time when Jesus came into existence, there's, there was a lot of other various types of figures, but there's also a theory that Jesus himself had a psychedelic experience that caused him to see and connect with God. and that was the basis of his belief.

Matt: 6:22

Yeah. And one of the things with psychedelics is it comes to that is the question of is God external or internal? And a lot of us in the ceremonial space believe that we are all gods. That we all this, these spiritual beings with, that are made of love and made of, that are worthy and that are beautiful. And that we don't need to look for external approval for our hierarchal, God, we can have this direct religious experience, remember who we are, and then take that knowledge moving forward. And when we think about a lot of the teachings of, of really all of the world's major religions, the teachings not the dogma, not the rules, but the idea that we should help our brothers and sisters, that it's gonna be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, that we should, or we can, support each other like we would support ourselves, that we are all family. those are lessons that many of us receive over and over and over in the psychedelic experiences with mushrooms in particular. we talk about as the interconnectedness of all things. You feel that you're not separate and apart from nature, you are nature. And that's, a knowing that's deep inside of you. other medicines, I'll use, talk about MDMA where you feel love for yourself and others. Yeah, it's nice. It's nice to be able to remember those things and then to work, following the psychedelic experience and integrating that knowledge into your life. How do you then keep that awareness and keep that presence when you're doing the dishes, when you're in work, when you're in discussion with your parents or your children or your partner? yeah, it's powerful medicine for, for all of those purposes

CODY: 7:57

Hmm. and so psychedelics, they have a tendency of expanding the mind and allowing us to see different perspectives as well as that connectedness to the universe and to others. So if that is the most, if that is the most ingrained primary experience that we might have in, say, that they had 2000 years ago, why have we seen such significant shifts in our perception and use of psychedelics over the last few hundred years in particular?

Matt: 8:28

Okay, so you brought up a lot there, Cody. That's great question. let's rewind a couple things. So let's go back in time to pre 1970. There was lots of academic research happening with psychedelics before the Nixon administration and what's was called the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, clamped down on our use and our studying of psychedelics. Meanwhile, we had the creation of the antidepressant and a lot of the mood stabilizers and, A DHD medications. All then the last 50 years has spread like wildfire. What's happened in this period? Well, many people aren't reacting well to the antidepressants. Many people are taking these things and it's becoming lifelong sentences for these drugs that were never meant to be for decades. They were meant to be for episodes. we have a loneliness epidemic happening in this country. We have people leaving churches and droves so they don't have the same sense of community that they used to have. suicide and depression, anxiety are on the rise. Life expectancy is on the decline. These are all challenges. That's why I think that's why we're talking about psychedelics today. It's not because we're talking about, we wanna talk about this particular drug for the sake of talking about drugs. We wanna talk about what's going on with us as a species, what's going on with us as humans. So then fast forward and now we've had so underground. the work hasn't stopped. Community, sacred use of psychedelics has happened all the time during the prohibition. But now academia has taken hold of this again, and they started researching it. And we have over 300 academic institutions studying psychedelics. And what they're showing is incredible. So you said, well, it expands your mind. It does expand your mind, but more importantly, it breaks repetitive thinking patterns. So as we get older, we literally start pruning the neuron connections in our minds. And you've heard the expression now, they're stuck in their ways. Well, literally, we start thinking the same way over and over and over. That can manifest as depression. It can manifest as anxiety. It can manifest as an eating disorder. It can manifest as a, a substance use challenge. It can manifest as workaholism. But we get into these repetitive thinking patterns. When we take a psychedelic, it allows neurons to fire together that haven't fired together in a while. And then we remember, which is why we talk about it as a remembrance medicine. We remember that, I don't need to think about this the way I'm thinking about it. There's another way to think about it. and with that knowledge, with that remembrance, we can start shifting our behaviors and not necessarily experiencing as much depression or anxiety or manifesting as how I'm eating or how I'm drinking or what I'm smoking. Those things can shift. we haven't had a shift in mental health in this country in over 50 years since that creation of that antidepressant. It's time people are demanding something else. We have veterans killing themselves at obscene numbers. We have people hurting themselves and we need a solution. And all of that is what is leading to, I think the psychedelic renaissance that we're experiencing both in the medical communities, actually in all three of the medical communities, the decriminalization communities, and in the ceremonial communities.

CODY: 11:37

And so we're seeing large shifts in society and culture from a range of sources, potentially technology, social media that is having this largely negative impact. And yet we've now seen this, as you described, this psychedelic renaissance. What do you think was the basis, where did the psychedelic renaissance and the shift in even public perception and government perception start?

Matt: 12:04

that is a good question. I do wanna back up for one second. I wanna be careful of our language as we're talking through this here. And I do know there are things that are challenging that are happening today. I know that there's, um, we do have technology that's scary, whether that's AI or whether that's the invasiveness of email and social media and so on and so forth. And I want to just pause for a moment and say, in all of human history, by all major metrics, this is the best time ever to be alive. So those two things can be true. We can have things that are challenging. We can have things that are upsetting. And this is incredible that we have so much wealth that crime is so low, that poverty is so low, that famine is so low, that violence against women is so low, not perfect, but lower than any other time. and we are also seeing with the younger generation, them saying, because we have so many things, we wanna start focusing on other things that we haven't had time to focus on yet. We wanna talk about gender equality. We wanna talk about range of topics. So now that we have, we're living in this incredible period of time, we have these challenges and we've kind of rediscovered what. Many people in the underground world have known for a long time that for thousands of years we've used this technology to help ourselves. And that can look like I wanna, I have a diagnosis and I wanna help myself there. And it can also look like, I just wanna understand more of what does it mean? what does consciousness mean? What happens next? What happened before? how can I see the world differently? And I think people are demanding that right, to do that. And they're demanding it, and someone to do it in a medical model. And some wanna do it in a ceremonial model. And both are kind of getting what they want slowly. It's, it's the, we can see the tides turning. Does that make sense, Cody?

CODY: 13:54

Yeah. I, can see that it's good to of course, share that there are so many positives about our society and our culture and our time of existence, that's not something to ignore. It's looking at this, this shift in perception of how has psychedelics allowed itself to become kind of reemerged into society but, more so What are some of the most recent, say, scientific studies that, that you can recall or that have occurred recently on some of the benefits of various psychedelic substances?

Matt: 14:26

Yeah, I love that. So, let's talk about MDMA for a minute. MDMA many of us knew that as Ecstasy or Molly when we were younger. it was legal and then it was made, to schedule one illegal for all of us. So a group called MAPS started doing, studies with MDMA. With people with treatment resistant post-traumatic stress disorder. So think about veterans first responders, victims of sexual assault where nothing has worked, none of the existing pharmacological solutions, none of the talk therapies, they've just been living with this pain of PTSD in the phase three clinical trials. They gave these populations two different sets of phase three trials. They gave them, three sessions with MDMA and therapy before and after, and almost 70% seven zero emerged without a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder anymore. So it's an off the chart number. During this process, the FDA gave it breakthrough therapy designation. maps has changed their name. Their public benefit corporation changed their name, but they submitted an application to the FDA to re legalize this medicine. The FDA has accepted that, and they expect to rule on that by August of this year. And we are all hopeful that MDMA will become legal again to help these people who have been living with the debilitating PTSD, as soon as this year other work that when I think about the other really powerful medicine that's talked, that's being studied a lot as psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in these magic mushrooms. And Johns Hopkins and Yale and, Imperial College of London and Kings College of London, UCSF, are all studying lots of things with psilocybin. One of the things they're looking at is this for end of life care. So you can imagine you've been given a cancer diagnosis that you would have existential stress, your depression would increase, your anxiety would increase. it's tough news. This medicine doesn't change the prognosis, it doesn't change that this person is going to die at some point here in the relatively near future. What it's proven to do is it changes the quality of the, that next period of time for them. It decreases, radically decreases depression and decreases anxiety, in these people where that's hard to do. And again, the FDA is looking at this saying, that's pretty powerful. How do we argue against that? Gave them breakthrough therapy designation. And there's a lot of hope that in the next couple years, psilocybin will be re legalized here in America. and then that same medicine, psilocybin has also been used in all these different substance use studies. And one of the ones smoking. And I, I don't remember the exact stats, either two or three times more effective than the current best thing in the market. For stopping people from smoking. So that's kind of incredible. and again, there's studies, there are 300 academic institutions studying psychedelics from a range of different challenges. And the good news, for lack of a better expression, keeps coming every day because the root is the repetitive thinking pattern that is being broken for whatever the quote, unquote disorder is that they're trying to, work with.

CODY: 17:51

You brought up a point in relation to. What potentially some use cases would be for say, psilocybin and other substances. And the, point that you brought up was the concept of set and setting, which as I understand are crucial in shaping our psychedelic experience. And it's the reason why if you go to a music festival and you do MDMA and some, some acid, then you don't have a transformation a week later. it's a lot more nuanced than that. Could you explain.

Matt: 18:24

Yeah, I love that. So we talk about source set and setting the three S's to a successful psychedelic experience. So sources, where did your medicine come from? If you're in the medical model, it came from a pharmacy. So you know, it's pure, for many people who are doing either, um, ceremonial psychedelics or psychedelic tourism, flying to Jamaica, the Netherlands, Brazil, Costa Rica, Peru, yeah, you don't know. And so we highly recommend either make sure whoever you're working with, this is all they do and they take this very seriously or test it yourself. Set is your mindset. so I do spend time with medical providers talking about how do you incorporate ceremonial best practices? And I spend time with ceremonial leaders. And how do you incorporate medical best practices? Well, one of the things the medical community does well is, this notion of informed consent and talking to the person upfront. Do you understand all the risks related for you? Do you understand that, um, this medicine's gonna take this long and that it's gonna feel this way and that these different adverse things could happen? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, great. some people in the ceremonial space do that, some don't. mindset is also, have you spent time thinking about your intentions? Well, that's often done in the ceremonial space. and sometimes in some of these, uh. Some of the ketamine clinics, they don't spend any time with preparation and intention setting. They just think it's a biochemical reaction versus a biochemical, psychosocial spiritual reaction. So that's kind of all speaks to your mindset going in. and then also, do you trust your facilitator and medical or ceremonial? Do you have confidence of the people who are in the room that you all understand the rules of engagement and how you're gonna participate in this experience? That's all relates to your mindset. And then the final one is setting, do you have control over the physical environment? Is there gonna be music? Is there gonna be eye masks? do you have neighbors or dogs or kids that are gonna disturb you or phones ringing? If you can pay attention to source set and setting the research from Johns Hopkins that the probability of having a truly bad trip is very, very low. You can have a challenging trip, but challenging trips can be good trips. Again, source, set and setting are the three things to pay attention to. I think when you do have a shaman or a guide who is, uh, has a lot of intention and attention and experience, they can help bring out different things and help you explore. and I think that's powerful. And then same with the medical, that with the great medical provider, you can get a lot out of that. And there are a lot of medical providers who, again, just believe it's a biochemical reaction. It's the western model, just in a different pill. And I think those of us who work in the ceremonial side of psychedelics, like that's, you're missing, you're missing the point. You're missing the journey.

CODY: 21:15

I mean, part of that, spiritual connection, I recall a study that looked at alcoholism and those who, who went to aa and typically even if they're able to stop taking the alcohol is that, say years later if some traumatic event pops up, if they don't have a belief in a higher power or something that's beyond themselves, then they tend to resort back to alcohol. And I find that interesting and can see a relation of psychedelics and our connection to whether it's a God or the universe, it's something outside of ourselves.

Matt: 21:51

Love that. I know Bill W who started Alcoholics Anonymous wanted LSD to be part of the protocol. In his words, he's like, oh, well these drunks need a, uh, a, spiritual experience and it's gonna be hard for them. But if we can force that spiritual experience, they can take that first step. It's kind of interesting to think about, and it's, different than the churches that we were all raised with. It's not about picking Judaism versus Catholicism or Presbyterian versus Methodist or Buddhist versus Islamic. It's a direct religious experience and a knowing. Without dogma that there's, more to life than this. this is not it. and then with that knowing, yeah, you can see maybe the drinking's not so good for me. Maybe the whatever's not so good for me. let's go back for a minute. You talked for a second about having a, having some pretty significant childhood adversity, both parents being alcoholics, if I remember correctly. I think you went to foster care pretty young as well. and then you've pushed yourself to become a, you became an overachiever. Um, it's interesting in our culture that we, how we look at different personality traits. So many of people who are type A personalities and overachievers, that is born of some type of trauma or some type of need to prove something to somebody. and we look at the person who is unable to get outta bed and is very sad and it's like, oh, that poor person. And they're, uh, not okay. And we don't look at the person on the cover of the magazine or running the company who's working. 12 hours a day, seven days a week as you did, and say, well, what's causing that person to kind of put all their effort work? We just don't do that. we celebrate that type of behavior. trauma, soothing behavior. And think that's interesting. I think a number of us, and I assume people who listen to your podcast are probably more in the type A organized, type of thing. And yeah, I just, I think saying to them, it is normal to have trauma and be an overachiever, it is normal to have things that are challenging and be an overachiever. And you don't have to live like that all the time. There's other ways to, address

CODY: 24:08

Yeah, there was, an executive at my previous company that we hired who actually used to be an alcoholic and then he became a workaholic and like the work became his new addiction and he was amazing in so many regards for the company, but in some ways. It was also a sacrifice or a transition he had to, to shift his addiction from one to another. and certainly for me growing up, I needed that validation because I was picked on, I was bullied. I, I wanted to prove to everybody that I could be successful and that I didn't need money or assistance in doing so. And now, even many, 15 plus years later, I still have this, deep feeling of this need for validation. And that kind of drives some of my decision making. It drives my anxiety of do I want to go to this event? And granted, I've been able to overcome a lot of that through the years. But there is so much trauma and especially with that, as you say, like type A productive community. I think in some ways that also drives the loneliness, that the burnout, that the languishing. Where you just feel like you're not able to be the person that you idealize, but what you fail to recognize is that person you idealize is unsustainable, and it's created as a function of what society tells you that you should idealize.

Matt: 25:31

Yeah, so, and that's based, and that is root of that teaching. That is what we all swim in, is scarcity. We are told from the time we're very young first to give up our power, give it up to our parents, give it up to the doctors, give it up to the teachers, give it up to the bosses. And we're told that there's not enough. You gotta get what's yours. You have to work hard to achieve, to be something, to prove yourself. you have to live up to your potential. And it's story after story after story that's rooted in scarcity. And we're not told there is plenty for everyone. There's enough that you don't have to work hard work enjoyably. You don't have to live up to your potential, satisfy the energy in your body and where it wants to go. We are so far beyond as a society making a living. now it's about making an opulent life. But we don't have to, we don't have to work the amount of hours we're working. We don't have to work the, the types of jobs that aren't meaningful. Because we want some more things. No, that's silliness. But we're not given permission. And if we're not, and I know for me, I felt guilt if I wasn't working and I could be making x per hour. I'm letting my family down. I'm letting me down. I'm not living up doing what everything I can do. And I didn't feel like I had the permission to just stop, like, enough, enough. No. I wanna spend more time with my kids or with my wife or with my friends. I won't even have friends. I went through a long period of time where I worked, I got up, I got in the car, I worked, I came back, I had dinner, had some time with the family, watched a show, went to bed. There was no time for friends. weekends, maybe vacations maybe. But that wasn't living. That was, hoarding. And it was also getting, it was gaining. It was working to win people's affection by building businesses and having employees and doing things. I was saying like me love me, and I needed that. I fed off of that versus knowing, Hmm, no, I'm good enough right now. I feel great like me. Don't like me. It's okay. It's, very, very different. And then that's something I'm really grateful for, the psychedelics for helping me see. and then also grateful for the teachers who keep reminding me that, okay, you've had these moments of awareness. How do you integrate, how do you keep that awareness? How do you move forward with your life? Most of life not being on the psychedelic

CODY: 28:03

on the notes, there are so many different types of psychedelics. There's LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, the ayahuasca. It. And so I know this could be a difficult question to answer, but is there a specific substance that's really best for specific types of conditions? Now, I know you're not a doctor, but if you had to generalize this generalization of what's a good drug for something like that?

Matt: 28:29

Yeah, there definitely are, specialties within the world of psychedelics. So, for example, MDMA, which we were talking about earlier, the empathogen, the Heart Opener Medicine. It's lovely turning off Shame, blame, and guilt is a lovely way to look back at trauma to get through PTSD, to help process those really hard things. It's also a lovely medicine for couples therapy. I can look at you and say, you are beautiful and I love you, and when you do whatever it is you do. You make me feel like this. And then the other partner can say, oh, I'm without getting defensive and without getting a feeling shame. I love you and I don't want you to feel that way. And I'm so sorry that my actions, landed that way. And I can work to do things differently now that I'm, I can see it. I can see it. So it's super powerful for those things.

CODY: 29:25

but on that note, there is a common experience when you take MDMA that you feel this connectedness to others. And so, especially if you take it in a social environment, you might meet somebody, you might feel like, wow, we we're best friends. Like, we're gonna hang out, we're gonna do everything together. And then say the next day comes, or the next week or month, and then you never follow up with that person. And, the feeling that you felt in that moment is no longer there. what is that experience and, might that affect the ability for couples to reconnect?

Matt: 29:57

when you're taking 'em DMA in a social setting Yeah, you're right on. You can feel, you can get, people get into puppy piles like big piles of people just 'cause we're all feeling the love and feeling someone else's skin against our skin. And it's lovely. and it can be short lived. There's a danger with MDMA when, if you're doing that in bigger doses, with someone you don't know that well, that yeah, it can make you actually feel more attached to someone you really don't know that well. So that's a real thing. there's lots of boundaries to put on MDMA with when it comes to sexual contact, again, a whole bunch of different contexts. And when you're in a loving relationship and you're in a relationship already, it can be a powerful tool to take that relationship to another, level. But you do need to be careful on when you use it and how you use it and who you use it with. and having clear rules. and I'll give one more thing about MDMA. sometimes with MDMA, there's a desire to have some type of sexual activity. it is in the informed consent world. if you can't take your consent back, did you really give informed consent? and with MDMA once the medicine's on, people can start feeling a certain way, behaving a certain way. So In the ceremonial space, we actually say there will be no sexual contact either between couples, while this medicine is active, period. And we just set the ground rules that way so that there's not, it just doesn't happen. And also so that even if a couple said, I wanna do this, you wanna do this? Now we take the medicine, the person really can't say no, they won't say no. So yeah, just something else to think about in the MDMA world. Um, psilocybin really powerful for, um, end of life care, the current antidepressants, it can take weeks to find out whether it works or not, and there's a whole time to titrate up and then to titrate off if it doesn't work. That's not how psilocybin works. You take it and almost within that first session, hopefully your depression anxiety is less. Ketamine similar works in the glutamate system, can have really fast. relief of depression and anxiety can knock suicidal ideation right off challenge with ketamine versus psilocybin is, it just doesn't last as long typically, in terms of how long between sessions, it can on some people, but on many, it's, not as, I don't wanna say permanent, but it's not as long lasting as psilocybin. Um,

CODY: 32:18

I know that there is a new way to prescribe ketamine, which is in kind of more of microdosing as a daily intake. Have you had any experience, or know any studies around, say the microdosing and the prescriptions available, around ketamine with that?

Matt: 32:35

I really don't know much about microdosing, ketamine. I think that would make me nervous in that in some animal studies, there has been shown addiction potential in ketamine, in the recreational world, people have been addicted to ketamine. Unlike like psilocybin, nobody gets addicted to psilocybin or very few. It's, it's not an addictive property or molecule. for me, microdosing, ketamine doesn't sound right. I don't understand it. and, maybe that's just because I'm not educated enough on that, so I'll put that out. There is, there's might be an area of opportunity for me to learn. but people microdose with psilocybin and LSD, and have really great effects and the research is split. There's some research that says Uhuh just a placebo. And there's other research that says this thing works. Most of the studies are underpowered, so it's really hard to know what to believe anyhow. but there are people who really feel like they get a lot out of it. If you're interested in microdosing, microdosing collective.org has a bunch of research on their site and they're out there advocating for the legalization of microdosing. there's also a book called A Really Good Day, which is a woman's 30 day journey into microdosing and a powerful, powerful, powerful journal. we talked about, uh, it psilocybin for end of life, depression, anxiety, psilocybin for alcohol and smoking cessation. think the only other medicine I'll call the attention to is, ibogaine or iboga, comes from an African root. it is showing tremendous promise for people who have opioid addictions. So if I had, if I knew if I had somebody, a family member who was on heroin, yeah, I would get them to an iboga clinic. the cautionary tale here is that that particular medicine actually does have significant cardiovascular risks. So it's something that you don't wanna do. outside side. either go to Africa and have like a tribal experience or have heart monitors and different people really making sure you're safe with that particular medicine. be careful with that one.

CODY: 34:31

and so in terms of how these different substances. Are effective, say MDMA, it creates huge increase in serotonin. It creates that feeling of connectedness to others and maybe that's, really fantastic for somebody who's feeling lonely or disconnected from others. And LSD and psilocybin in some ways are kind of a group, and I know this could probably be either or, or, or both of these, but in terms of how they help the person resolve, the intention that they had set with, say, taking the psychedelic substance, is it kind of the, experience of feeling the emotion and then digging into the emotion? Is it, is it, say, a trauma that comes up and you're able to accept that as a part of you? the mechanism of action in relation to how the difference in substances help a person resolve the issue.

Matt: 35:22

I don't know how to answer your question, Cody. It's interesting. I know for me, I've had wildly different experiences on different medicines for different purposes. And I'll give an example. when I was a young teenager, I had some inappropriate sexual contact with a family member, 10 years older. And that was something I was mortified about, really, really deeply embarrassed, couldn't talk about it. And when even people would make jokes around that topic, I would feel like my ears burning a pit in my stomach really hard. but it was just tucked so deep in a drawer and on a heart opening medicine, I was put right back in that room and it was not where I want to be. And they teach us, when you're doing these psychedelics, you're facilitator often say like, if you see something you don't like. Don't run away. What you resist, persist. You gotta ask it. What are you here to teach me? Show me what's okay. Yeah, it's easy and it's in theory and it's hard when you're there. but in this case, I was able to re-look at that situation and be like, okay, well wait a minute. I wasn't the adult in the room. And wait a minute, let's look at this person. And she was rejected from her father. She wasn't feeling loved. She was having all sorts of, substance use challenges and rejection issues. And I don't have to condone the behavior to understand the humanity of it, to understand what the desire to just have someone else be close to you. And, um, yeah. So I could, I could, I could move on and realize, okay, I don't need to be embarrassed about this. I, this isn't my, this isn't something that's shameful. This isn't my fault. This was just something that happened, and I'm not sure I would've had that same experience with just psilocybin with that particular, history. but yeah, that heart opener was really perfect for that type of experience for me and for people who were trying to work through traumas like that.

CODY: 37:23

That's, brilliant. something you said earlier in relation to that post experience, that there's an important emphasis, as I understand in the research component and assisted therapy of psychedelics that focuses a lot on the post experience integration. why is that so important and what does that entail?

Matt: 37:45

Yeah, and that's, true In the medical world, and it's also true in with the ceremonial world for a lot of the churches are doing really great jobs with integration. So what happens with these psychedelics again, so you're, you've, you've quieted it down the default mode network. You've had neurons firing together that haven't fired together. You've had these, epiphanies and these thoughts, and then the medicine ends. And what happens? Well, you've created a period of neuroplasticity in your brain that's roughly four weeks, 30 days-ish from the time of psychedelic. And the research shows that if you're intentional about integrating those things that you saw into your life, that you can really make radical mental and behavioral shifts in that next 30 days. And you can reprogram your mind. To look more towards the positive and you can reprogram your body to not crave some of the things you were craving. so integration in my mind is really where the word I'm gonna use is where you optimize the psychedelic experience. Where you take what was a beautiful 4, 6, 12 hour thing, one hour in ketamine, and you figure out how does this change your life? How do you bring that awareness to everything you do? How do you, how do you remember what you remembered? And I think if you're not intentional about that and journaling and having some community and some people to help unpack that these things can too easily become, I took a trip to Japan and it was great, and then it's over and now I'm back at work. And, integration is what separates that from being just another experience in your life.

CODY: 39:23

Yeah, it's the processing of the experience and understanding how does this experience relate to my everyday life, and how can I bring those experiences and those thoughts, those revelations into my everyday life that allows me to live a happier, more fulfilled version of myself.

Matt: 39:44

Yeah. Right on. That is, that's so true.

CODY: 39:46

is there a standard practice when it comes to the techniques of psychedelic integration? I.

Matt: 39:53

no, it ranges pretty radically from provider to provider and then also for those listening, if you're looking at doing a psychedelic, and again, this can be medical. I'm talking to a ketamine clinic, or it can be psychedelic tourism. I'm about to take a trip to Costa Rica. Ask them what they do for you for integration. And it's not because they are bad or wrong if they don't do integration, but then, you know, I need to supplement that on my own. the ceremonial space that I work in, we give people a journal. Each week following ceremony has a series of integration prompts of things to think about. And then we have a weekly call where the community comes back together and talks through what's come up for them that week. On top of all of that, we have a 30 day gratitude journal. So you're doing like a three good things exercise every day. We are recommending like a mindfulness practice, whether it's five or 10 minutes of meditation, walking in nature, and then all the basics. Are you sleeping enough? Are you drinking enough? Are you eating whole non-processed foods? Can you put all that into your body in that next 30 days following ceremony? and I do think most people are thinking about integration or thinking about mind. They're thinking about body and they're thinking about spirit and how do we, implement the changes that the person wants, knows that they want to do. I will throw one quick disclaimer. We also tell people do not make any major life decisions for at least two weeks following ceremony. so if you think, uh, I need to marry this person, I need to leave this person. I need to quit my job. I need to whatever, If you still feel that way two weeks later, great, but let's slow down and process and think through for a little bit following ceremony. I think that's really important. and it's, that's also we're having a good coach or therapist or someone who can help unpack those things with you is, lovely to have.

CODY: 41:42

Yeah, and it's been unfortunate that not everybody gets access to a coach, or a therapist or mentor or other psychiatric, medical doctor. And that brings us to just the legal and the ethical challenges that have faced psychedelic research and say it's becoming more criminalized in some countries, in some areas. And then we've had this complete opposite of decriminalization even in Oregon. And so what are the current legal challenges that you think face psychedelic research so that we can enable more people to have these guided journeys by psychologists or psychiatric experts so that they can help to resolve some of their trauma or other things going on.

Matt: 42:25

Okay, so to answer this question, what I want to remind people of is in the old days. There was just healer. And our healers were both medical and spiritual healers. And our Western society has separated those roles where pure science is in the hand of the doctors and pure spirit is in the hands of the clergy and psychedelics dance in both worlds. And I can understand that if you were to say, well, wait a minute, if we give psychedelics to the clergy, they don't have the latest knowledge of my brain and my body to keep me safe. Totally fair. But or, and if we said psychedelics belongs only to medicine, the same argument as they don't have the latest knowledge of the spirit community to help me on my journey of consciousness, which is beyond my journey around my diagnosis. So we do need to have a reconciliation. And there are three ways people meet psychedelics in America. Some want the medical model. Somewhat the ceremonial model and somewhat that decrim huddle that we were talking about a moment ago, you brought up access. So in addition to the libertarian, no adult should tell another adult what to put in their body. Part of what makes a decriminalization model so powerful is access people who don't have the money to afford a medical treatment but can grow their own mushrooms. They are also protected in a decriminalization model. which then brings us back to not everybody can have the dot, dot dot. Not everyone can get the integration. Not everyone can get the coach. Not everyone can get the therapist. Not everyone can get the guide. And that is true. And these psychedelics, Alan Wat used to say, okay, if you give somebody a, a piano or guitar, is what he used actually and said, anyone hand a guitar and they move the strings, they can make music. But it's not great music. But you give it to someone who really knows how to play and they can tell stories and they can make you cry and they can make you laugh all with the guitar. The same thing is kind of true of psychedelics. Anyone can take a psychedelic and have an experience and in the hands of a great guide, I think it can be even a better experience. what I try to remind people of is let's not let perfect get in the way of more and of good. people can meet all these different ways. I don't need to make sure that every experience is the perfect experience when these medicines are relatively safe they're not addictive by and large. and I do want more people to have access and then they can make the decision. So that's a long way to then say, so where are we legally in this country? Well, we have ketamine legal in all 50 states. We have two states, Colorado and Oregon, that have. Decriminalized psychedelics and have created a medical framework for them to operate. We have cities across the country from Washington, DC to Ann Arbor, Michigan to Medford, Massachusetts, that have decriminalized these medicines we're getting momentum. and it's because of all of these things working together. It's the academics that are feeding, the journalists that are feeding the consumers, which are, and people saying, oh, I was told a bunch of crap for 50 years. I wasn't told the truth. Now I hear the truth. I think I want access to these and whether I wanna take the psychedelic or not, I wanna have access. So we're seeing it shift. we're seeing decrim nature's chapters across the country that's fighting for decriminalization. And we have right now somewhere between 202,000 psychedelic churches in America operating under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act saying our country was founded on religious freedom. Most of our state constitutions have that baked in. And there's no question that these, powerful sacraments, these entheogens, have been used in ceremonial use for thousands of years. And I want to use them not because I have a diagnosis, but because I wanna connect with my sacred and I should be allowed to do that. And I do wonder if this particular Supreme Court and this particular world we're in is, might be the best to have that discussion in front of. it's a really interesting time to be alive for this. And again, I think all three things are moving the needle forward. All three things need to coexist, and all three things are supportive of each other.

CODY: 46:51

Matt, what you say is, powerful. I mean, I, feel chills when you talk you're so well spoken on the subject. and I know that you've also been part of the momentum that has been leading this change. And I know in part by your books, but also I believe you founded an organization, psychable.com and I'm wondering, could you tell us more about that?

Matt: 47:11

Yeah, I've made a couple investments in this space. psychable was one that was really, it's a beautiful concept and the idea was how do we put, how do people find providers? Just how do you find a provider? So I just wanted something silly that you could go in and type in and Ketamine clinic in Boise and find providers, and then other people can put their ratings and perspectives on those providers and it can all be in one easy place to access. yeah, and I love that project. it was fun to put together. and I like building things. So yeah, I helped create that Got it going and moved on. But it's lovely that it's out there and still functional and still works. I did an investment in a, um, in a ketamine telehealth company that pretty much, I think at this point it's ran, out of cash. It's, a great idea. There's some other competitors that, not competitors is the wrong word. There's some other players in that space that just raised a lot more money and got a lot more momentum faster, and that's beautiful. But I thought it was important to help. Bring ceremony to telehealth. And so I placed a bet in that area and learned a ton. So maybe I didn't make it financially, but I learned a lot. And then now I spend, most of my time with a, a spiritual community. and then doing consulting with, again, medical providers. And how can you incorporate these ceremonial best practices into your protocols? There are ways, there's techniques. You can learn it 'cause you're super smart people and you've learned everything else and you can learn this. And then conversely, ceremonial people, there's processes and procedures and protocols that they do pretty well over there in the medical side that how do you, and I'll give, I'll give one example. How do we ensure that everybody coming into a ceremony has had a proper health screening by someone who understands what they're looking at and knows that. oh, Wait a minute. This pill that you're taking for a toenail fungus actually blocks, the serotonin receptor and will not allow a good experience to happen. Or this particular thing that looks like a pain medicine actually has a serotonin piece in it. And if you take that and MDMA at the same time, you run the risk of serotonin syndrome. So how do you do that? And I, and I talk to people about, um, all the time, I refer people to spirit pharmacist.com, which is Dr. Ben Malcolm. I think this guy's brilliant. he does health intakes for anybody, really anywhere. And what I like about what he does, and there's others, the Dharma Pharmacist or Dharma d aist, I think she's called, the Psychedelic Pharmacist Association. There's others who do this work. ben malcolm, spirit pharmacist.com. What I like about it is it puts the agency back in the person. So I'll give you one more. Let me, let me dive deeper for this for just a second. Cody, many people who go to ceremonies or go to ketamine clinics, they turn in their health intake. The people behind the scenes read it. They determine, yes, your risk profile is low enough that we're gonna allow you into our experience. Great. And then you sign in many cases like a, informed consent disclaimer, and it's all this stuff. Here's all the dangers of psychedelics. concerned that many people don't read that and think it belongs to them. It's just side effects. It's just risks. It's like going to ski slope and I got my ticket and yeah, I'm, why nothing's gonna happen to me and off the mountain. What I like about Ben is he's gonna give you your. Risks. He's not gonna tell you you should or should not. He's gonna say, Hey, at your BMI, at your age, at your prescriptions, at your supplements, at your trauma, at your whatever, these are the risks that we know of with research. These are the risks that, this is the stuff that research doesn't say anything on. And then you can take that yourself and say, Hmm, I can live with that level of risk and I'm gonna go ahead and do this, whatever this is. Or you can say, I don't wanna do this. And both are beautiful answers. But Ben is not trying to sell you a $6,000 retreat in Jamaica. He's not trying to sell you a $5,000 Ketamine package with IV treatments. He's just giving you information. So for a few hundred dollars, you take back your power, get your own health intake, and then decide what, if any, psychedelic is right for you.

CODY: 51:21

Powerful stuff, Matt, there is such an important emphasis on making an informed decision and not just checking a box because you want something, and I know for everyone, we've, covered so much in terms of psychedelics, and yet there's so much more that has to be covered. And I know you've written two books on the topic, one of them being psychedelics for everyone. I've read it and I love it. It, there's so much information science studies, recommendations that you just give. it's a, a really great tool, I think, for those who wanna dive more in depth to learning psychedelics and how it might affect their mental health. Are there any other organizations, websites or places that you'd recommend that they visit as well?

Matt: 52:08

so I think, maps.org, m maps.org has lots of resources on it. they've been at the forefront of this for a long time. They're great a resource, I. I think, uh, I'm trying to think which other, the ones I love, I, it depends what your, your, so the one I'm working with one right now that I think is super cool, so I'll plug this for a second. Heroic Hearts project.org, is the US domain. There's a different one in the uk, I can't remember, but they work with veterans, in England and here, and they take them deep into the, uh, rainforest and give them ayahuasca and psilocybin and different medicines, and they do beautiful work. If you type in Heroic Hearts project in New York Times, you can see a couple beautiful articles, great things. And my next project I'm working on right now is a workbook and a coaching guide, all for specifically for veterans. And it's just so many of our veterans are coming back with PTSD, with traumatic brain injury. And it is a shame that this organization has to take them out of the country. To give them medicines that work. they did just have their first, that being said, they did just have their first experience up in Oregon, which I believe was a, was positive for them. But that's with, psilocybin and they still really want access to ayahuasca. And that's going south right now. But it's ex again, exciting. I can hold both things, right? I can be angry that it's, um, it's frustrating that they are, that they have to do this and it costs so much money to take the vets out of the country for a week at a time. and they could serve so many more people if they could just do it openly here and our healthcare system and our country. And we're seeing it shift. We're seeing all sorts of great things happen, and we're seeing people recognizing their research and recognizing the power. And we're seeing bipartisan support of psychedelics for veterans. We're seeing Republicans and Democrats, coming together for psychedelic research. We're seeing liberal and conservative donors donating to psychedelic causes. We're seeing things like the Johns Hopkins Psychedelic Institute, flourishing. We're seeing, University Wisconsin, Madison doing beautiful work. We're seeing University of California, San Francisco doing beautiful work on and on all throughout our country. So again, we are living through it. And that's, I didn't know when I was a kid that we were in a prohibition. I thought prohibition was with alcohol, and that was back in the old days. I didn't know we were in a drug prohibition. I didn't know that's what that was. But we're coming out of this and it's exciting and we're seeing other countries like Portugal, which is decriminalized all medicine, drugs, don't kill anybody in Portugal. Very, very, very few. They kill a lot of people here in the United States, and they kill a lot of people because we have an underground market. We have fentanyl coming through this, and our kids are taking things that they don't know what they're taking and they're dying. And we are allowing people to die every day to help potentially some people not die. Some theoretical people not die from medicines in the future. And it's, it is a shame and it needs to stop and it's shifting. And we are all part of this shift. And if you're still listening to this podcast here, an hour and 10 minutes into this, you are a part of this shift or you wouldn't be listening right now. And so thank you for listening and I'm curious what you're gonna do next with this information.

CODY: 55:25

Wow, Matt, it's such an exciting time for psychedelics, and yet there's so much more work that we have to do collectively as a society and as an individual. And with that, I know that we're out of time, so if you're still listening, there's links, show notes, books, any and all organizations, and even the transcript is also in the show notes below,