Embracing Self-Compassion: A Conversation with Kristin Neff | Ep. 064

Episode Transcript

Kristin: 0:00

I'm sure you've been in this situation where you've had a friend try to comfort you or say it's okay, and you're just like, I'm not having any of it. So if you're inner critic is really strong and loud, supportive messages from others can't even get through.

CODY: 0:24

Welcome back to the Mind Hack podcast. Today we have the privilege of welcoming Dr. Kristin, Neff, a pioneer in the field of psychology and well known for her groundbreaking work on the impacts of mindful self-compassion. Kristin is an associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and she's the author of Self-Compassion. The proven power of being kind to yourself. A pivotal book in the realm of self-compassion. It has garnered over 6,000 Amazon reviews and has been praised by the likes of Benet Brown, Tara Brock, Rosie O'Donnell, Daniel Siegel, and many others. She's also the co-founder of the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion, a program that is taught by thousands of teachers around the globe. Her insights not only empower individuals to embrace their vulnerabilities, but also to transform them into sources of strength. As we navigate through this conversation today, we'll uncover the profound impact that self-compassion or self-criticism can play on our lives. We're going to explore the most effective attitude we can adopt for ourselves and those around us. An attitude that boosts our capacity to make a difference and fulfill our ambitions. Now let's get straight into it and give a warm welcome to Kristin Neff. Kristin, welcome to the podcast.

Kristin: 1:40

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

CODY: 1:44

So typically I'd start out with a question here, but there was a short antidote in your book about being at a light with a homeless guy and he was asking for money, and that resonated with me so much because I too, believe it or not, was recently at a light with a homeless guy asking for money. And you know, I was in a good mood, so I pulled out a 20 and I handed it to him. Then he thanked me and said, he'll be able to buy a lot of noodles with this. And I said, or whatever else you wanna spend it on. And then he hits me with this, if you mix some candy with whiskey, it tastes like candy. I then thought to myself, oh geez, for sure he is gonna buy alcohol with that now. And as the light turned green and I drove away, I proceeded to have this internal conflict with myself because on one hand I felt good about helping him, but then I'm thinking that $20 would've done way more good if I had given it to the Red Cross or the local food bank. But then another thought hit me. If I were in his shoes, I too would probably wanna numb myself from the reality of being homeless. And suddenly I'm seeing him not just as some homeless guy, but as a fellow human being. Maybe he had it rough like anyone else facing bad breaks or tough times, who am I to judge? And so, Kristin, well, your story in the book was a little bit different. I think the message is the same, that compassion is relevant to blameless victims, to those with misfortunes, and that compassion itself involves recognizing our share of human condition as flawed and fragile as it is.

Kristin: 3:17

Yeah, absolutely. and so one of the reasons, the points I was trying to make is the difference between compassion and pity, because with pity, if you pity someone like that, you're feeling separate from them. You're kind of seeing them as somehow less than human. And compassion honors the humanity of all people. Even if they're doing things that aren't so great, even if they're making mistakes or even harming others, they're still human beings. And so with self-compassion or compassion for others. We're framing, this everyone's experience in light of the shared human experience, that we're all in a way on, we're all in this together at some level. And also it reminds us that we aren't in total control, right? So we didn't choose our upbringing, we didn't make all the decisions about what events happen in our lives that led us to where we are right now. And so having this bigger view, which is really a type of wisdom. You might say wisdoms at the heart of compassion, including self-compassion, seeing this larger, complex tapestry that shapes who we are.

CODY: 4:24

And so why do we as humans, as a species, why is self-compassion not our default?

Kristin: 4:32

Well, a couple reasons for this and they're pretty strong, so, you know, don't beat yourself up for beating yourself up. I think it does seem to be our default. Some are cultural reasons. most cultures, and I've, taught this all over the world. Most cultures don't tell us it's good to be self-compassionate. we think we're supposed to be hard on ourselves to drive ourselves forward, or you know, to be selfless, not think of ourselves only, think of others. So it's not part of the culture. Cultural milieu you might say in most places, but there's probably also some evolutionary reasons why. so when we're personally threatened. if we make a mistake or we fail, or something's really difficult, we feel threatened. So we instinctually go into fight, flight or freeze mode. So we fight ourselves thinking somehow this will either get us in line so we won't make mistakes or, blunt the, the pain of other people criticizing us. Or we flee into a sense of shame. We hang our head and shame away from the group. That's also an evolutionary response. Or we freeze. We kind of sit there and roll over the same loop again and again thinking that maybe if I just don't do anything, the problem will go away. so. With our good friends and family members, the people we really care about, we actually don't go into fight, flight, or freeze. we have another mode called tend and befriend. This also is passed down through evolution that we, care for others. We're there for them. We support them because if we do that toward our offspring or our group members, we're more likely to pass our genes down. So it's actually more natural to be compassionate toward others and to be self-critical or at least, you know, hang our head in shame or feel isolated with ourself. So we are having to do a little hack. Right. Your show's called MindHack. Well, this one hack we've gotta do is we have to hack into the care system, which is more designed for others and use it with ourselves. But actually, it's not that difficult to do. The body doesn't really know the difference. If you treat yourself like you would treat someone else you cared about, your body still reacts the same way.

CODY: 6:33

Don't we have a, we have self-compassion for those that are within our inner circle. Then there's a component of tribalism that causes us to, to be critical of others not within our group. But then simultaneously we're also self-critical of ourselves for fear of not fitting in with the group that we most associate with.

Kristin: 6:57

Yeah, so we're, complex creatures. I don't know if you're familiar with, internal Family systems work developed by Richard Schwartz, but I think we do have lots of different parts and these parts play different roles. So we have a part of ourselves, which is critical. We have a part of ourselves that's kind, we have a, a part of ourselves that doesn't wanna let ourselves go away with anything. and so You might say a part of ourselves identifies with an ingroup that we wanna be a part of. And another part of us says, you aren't part of that ingroup. If you wanna be safe and survive, you better start changing yourself. I mean, we have a lot of voices going on, um, inside of ourselves. I like to call it, the compassionate mess, right? So we're a mess, human life is messy, and the goal of practice is to be a compassionate mess. I mean, the goal of practice isn't to be a mess. We don't wanna be a mess. We'll do whatever we can to not be a mess. But in fact, given that we can't avoid that, if we just try to bring compassion to this whole mess, all these conflicting, messy, contradictory voices, then we can transcend what all these little parts are saying and take this broader perspective, which is a perspective of compassion, of wisdom, of a loving kindness. But it takes a little bit of stepping back and not being so lost in the, what the parts are saying, or in the, particular thoughts and emotions that are arising.

CODY: 8:20

I, I will love to get into the purpose of self-compassion and what we can learn from that, as well as specific ideas at which we can implement. But I'd like to go back to when you were in the doctoral program at the University of California at Berkeley, and you explored. Eastern spirituality and you came across a Buddhist perspective on self-compassion, and you discovered something interesting.

Kristin: 8:43

Yeah, so basically what had happened is I was under a lot of stress. I had just gotten a divorce and I was feeling some inadequacy and self-doubt. but I was under a lot of stress about whether or not I get a job after finishing my dissertation because the job market was very tight, very uncertain. and So I decided to learn mindfulness meditation. And fortunately for me, I mean it could have been standard mindfulness, just focus on the breath and make space for what's there. But fortunately, I learned, mindfulness meditation in the tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh. Who is a Vietnamese zen master who is one of the teachers who always talked about the importance of self-compassion. he talked a lot about compassion, but especially that compassion had to float inward as well as outward if it was to be sustainable. And so I remember that the first night I went to the meditation course, you know, it took me a while to figure out meditation, but that very first night I went home and I started treating, you know, talking to myself kindly like, okay, Kristin, this is a really hard time for you right now. It's stressful. I'm here for you. What do you need? I just. Tried to be friendly and supportive toward myself, and I was blown away by the immediate difference it had in my ability to cope. It was a night and day from, you know, it's all your fault to How can I help? I'm here for you. I just felt so much more, uh, resilient and more able to cope with all the stress of my life. And so that's really what led me down the path to, start to research it because in my own personal life, I had seen how effective it was is it's a simple mindset shift, but it's huge shifting from an enemy, you know, so you're cutting yourself down, or you're criticizing yourself, or you're being harsh or cold to being supportive and helpful with the learning and growth orientation you make that mindset shift and everything changes.

CODY: 10:33

and there was one part of your book that really struck out for me personally is that, that we end up going through life and then we have people around us and those people try to support us emotionally. And the problem is, is that sometimes our therapist isn't always there, or our friend or our partner, they're not gonna always be with us. There's only one person that will ever be with us throughout our entire lives, and that is us. And it, made me realize, as you say, is that we can learn to rely on ourselves as that, that comforting source of solace that can help us through any difficult condition rather than What we tend to rely on is other people to help us feel better.

Kristin: 11:15

Yeah, absolutely. it is not like we don't need other people as well, but. If you think of it as a part of ourselves, we have a part of ourself that is wise, that is compassionate, that's supportive, that's benevolent. And by the way, this part of ourselves had some degree been shaped by our experiences with other people who've been there for us. It kind of modeled it for us, but even those who haven't been fortunate enough to have that personal experience, often we can imagine. What the ultimate compassionate voice or supportive a message would sound like, and so we can access that part of ourselves at any time. I'm sure you've been in this situation where you've had a friend try to comfort you or say it's okay, and you're just like, I'm not having any of it. So if you're inner critic is really strong and loud, supportive messages from others can't even get through. So it's really the most important voice. Is the voice that comes from within, that's the one that has the most impact on us.

CODY: 12:14

Yeah, and so often we also, as a side note, we try to, we all default to trying to help the other person, and most of the time they're just looking for validation, but then often they don't even know that they're looking for validation when they're reaching out.

Kristin: 12:29

Right. Well, so there's really two types of help. I like to call it, the tender and the fierce, or you might say the warm accepting side. Validating side, but there's also an action oriented side to help that's equally important. It's not like one is more important than another. And so sometimes the best way to help is just by listening. By just being there, by validating. but other times, people actually need our effort and energy. That type of help is also a form of compassion, and it's the exact same with ourselves. So sometimes what we need is acceptance just to listen to ourselves, to accept ourselves exactly as we are. but sometimes we need to get off the couch and do something. You know, in order to alleviate our suffering, because if we're actually harming ourselves by our behaviors or maybe our lack of action, that it's not compassionate just to accept that. So sometimes we like to say, self-compassion is a practice of asking yourself, what do I need right now to be well? And sometimes the answer is acceptance and validation. Sometimes that the answer is, you know, saying no, standing up for myself, doing something differently. And you are really the only one who knows, that question has to be asked and answered. doesn't have to be, but ultimately has to be asked and answered by yourself. You can get some advice from others if you want, as well.

CODY: 13:52

And so I'd like to shift and ask about a question that you probably get asked quite a bit, which is that if we're too self-compassionate, won't we just end up being lazy? I.

Kristin: 14:03

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's because people don't Understand the fierce action oriented side of self-compassion. If in fact you are just about acceptance. and you weren't reaching your goals or you're doing behaviors that weren't healthy because you're just sitting at home maybe to decide not to go into work or to study or reach your goals, you would actually be harming yourself and that would not be compassionate. so one way that compassion is defined in psychology is concern with the alleviation of suffering. And so if you're doing something that causes suffering, like not doing what you need to do to reach your goals, that's not self-compassionate, So here's the difference though. Why are you being motivated to achieve a goal? So with self-compassion, you don't do it because I need to achieve my goal, otherwise, I'm unworthy. It's like, the bottom line is I am acceptable exactly as I am, but I want to achieve my goal because it'll make me happy. And if I don't achieve my goal, I'll suffer. So the motivation, you might say, the source of motivation and self-compassion comes from care as opposed to fear of not being good enough. And that's huge. The biggest reason it's important. is that It creates a learning and growth orientation. So if, the bottom line is we're acceptable as we are, but we want to do our best, then if we fail, it does. It's not a reflection on us as we're the human beings. It's just a indication of, oh, okay, that didn't go so well. What might I try differently next time? And that's compassionate motivation. The problem of people who use self-judgment to motivate themselves is when they do fail to reach their goals, then they judge themselves and they shame themselves. And that creates all sorts of things that run directly counter to motivation, like, um, creates performance anxiety. Look, if you watch any sports, when people really start getting down on themselves for like missing that field goal, then they can't do the next one, right? So leads into this downward spiral that's actually counterproductive. So it is

CODY: 16:03

fear And so when some.

Kristin: 16:05

but lots of research shows it's actually incorrect. Compassion is a more effective motivator than self-criticism.

CODY: 16:11

Hmm. and so it's in part about not judging whether we failed or whether we did something wrong. it's about looking at that and accepting the circumstances, and also having a level of compassion for ourselves and recognizing that, we're doing the best that we can and it sucks, but that's. Partly life, but I know I'm gonna get through it. I'm gonna be stronger going forward.

Kristin: 16:33

well you might say the accepting side of self-compassion is more about, ourselves as we're the individuals flaws and all, and also our emotions or the present moment, right? The present moment is what it is right now, and our emotions are what they are. But we don't necessarily want to accept all our behaviors or our situations into the future because sometimes they're unhealthy. So for instance, social justice movements, they're really about acceptance. They're about change. But if you go about a social justice, goal without accepting other people's human beings, then you're just contributing to the problem, right? So we accept our humanity and the humanity of others, and yet we do try to change what we can. Of course we have limitations, but, we change what we can in order to be healthier and happier. you have to make a little distinction between individual self-worth and situations. And also understanding that we do our best, and we aren't in total control.

CODY: 17:34

and so this reminds me of a recent Andrew Huberman and David Goggins interview that was conducted at the beginning of January in 2024. And perhaps this, I'm just really fascinated to hear your perspective on this, and perhaps what David is saying is nothing different than what you're saying, but in the interview, David speaks about having two voices and everybody has these in their heads. The first is this comforting voice that seeks instant gratification and comfort, and it leads to this unproductive or destructive behavior. And the second voice, which Goggins endorses and has cultivated within himself is this critical voice that recognizes hard truths about one situation and propels them towards action and overcoming other obstacles. Goggin refers to this battle between these two voices as a necessary conflict to achieve greatness and involving defeat. And learning from failure. He touted that by engaging with the Second Voice one creates a dialogue and faces their personal challenges head on leading to real world change and self-improvement.

Kristin: 18:38

I disagree.

CODY: 18:39

Hmm.

Kristin: 18:40

So here, here's what the two things are being mixed up, warmth and coldness. Versus, action and acceptance. think about fierce mama bear self-compassion. Think about a parent. If you really love your child and you want them to be motivated, you don't have to call them names. You don't have to be cold. You don't have to be mean to your child with your heart open and love and kindness, you can say. You gotta go to school, you gotta do your homework, and how can I help? I believe in, you think of a really good coach, right? Yeah. There are coaches who are mean and cold and cruel and they, they're kind of somewhat effective. But the best coaches are ones that can give you clear. Constructive feedback who believe in you and who support you and make you feel like self confident. So there's no reason you have to be, I mean, this constructive criticism. Sure, constructive criticism is good. You aren't being a good friend to yourself or to your friends if you're bullshitting them. You know, part of being a good friend is being honest, but you don't have to be cold. You don't have to be mean. And warmth does not only mean acceptance. Yeah, I just disagree with that perspective and I think the model of, good parenting is a really good one. you know, we aren't always our best parents. We'd like to be, but a really good parent is tough when they need to be. draws boundaries, sets rules, has high expectations, but a good parent is unconditionally loving. You can love your child even though you say. I'm sorry. This behavior has to change. It's not acceptable and I'm doing it because I love you, not because you're worthless. it's a very common fallacy people fall into. but there is some data on this. So for instance, we taught self-compassion to NCAA athletes, you know, and athletes, they have to be at the top of their game. Their scholarships A lot of them wanna go into, pros. So we taught them how to be self-compassionate towards setbacks in their training routines or mistakes in games. Again, we didn't say, oh, just accept it. That's not compassionate for an athlete to accept their mistakes, we taught them that to create this really good supportive coach in their mind that gave them clear, constructive feedback, and we found that when they did that, they actually improved their athletic performance.

CODY: 20:58

and so I can see two different perspectives in that David is saying is that if you failed or you didn't get up, that he still has that inner critic, that inner voice that's telling him he's a piece of crap. But then he's saying that. I know I can do better. I'm gonna do better next time. He also has like a source of strength that comes with that inner criticism and that strength kind of pulls him through. And so I guess his perspective is that it's by having the inner critic that motivates you to. pursue action. And the example he gives is this, idea of, obese person where if you're an obese person and you, and naturally we think, well, if you're compassionate towards yourself, you're just gonna go back to eating donuts and milkshakes and you're never going to change. What would you say to somebody who's obese? What advice would you give them and what's the mindset and perspective shift they need to have to, being able to help, themselves?

Kristin: 21:51

Yeah. Well, it's a shame people assume these things without actually doing any empirical research on it because it's not true. So I'll give you an example of another study. It actually was a study with donuts on people who are trying to lose weight. Usually what happens. If you're trying to lose weight and you, you blow your diet, you eat a donut, for instance, you criticize yourself, you say, I'm worthless, and then you go ahead and eat five donuts because you feel so bad about it yourself. It's actually doesn't work. So there was a study where they taught people how to be self-compassionate when they like ate donuts or things like that. but again, compassion doesn't mean, oh, it's fine. Compassion means, hey. I'm concerned about you. I want you to be healthy. You aren't feeling good in your body, and by the way, it's not what you eat as much as like the whole big picture of are you getting enough nutrition? Your exercise balance is, is kind of a movement against saying donuts or bad, for instance. But Regardless. when you're compassionate towards yourself, you're going to hold yourself to high standards because you care, not because you're a piece of crap. And that caring is more motivating than the fear that comes from I'm the piece of crap. So it does kind of work. I mean, it used to be parents. Parents used to swear. spare the rod, spoil the child. This used to be the parenting philosophy and people, you know, like this, this person who was you're talking about still has this philosophy. You must be really strict and punish yourself with a whip to get yourself moving. No, you don't. the most successful parenting are people who are, authoritative. They've got clear boundaries, high expectations. They, don't let anything go. They're unconditionally loving and they give clear, constructive, supportive feedback that is what's most effective. We know that with parenting, it's the exact same thing with ourself. So something like losing weight, for instance. so if this is important to you that why do I wanna lose weight? It's not because I'm unworthy. If I don't, it's not because I'm, worthless or I don't have to call myself names. It's. I wanna lose weight so I feel better on my body, so I feel healthier, or maybe I wanna exercise more. when the, source of the motivation comes from love and care, it's actually more sustainable and more effective in the long run. And the source of motivation is just shame and, ridicule and scorn and harshness.

CODY: 24:08

And

Kristin: 24:08

again, there's lots of research on this, so people who say this without doing the research. Yeah, yeah. Just look at the research and don't assume just because you think it's true that it is, it's not.

CODY: 24:19

Yeah, what you're saying, I a hundred percent have that attitude as well. And I think more people, that's often the problem with societies is that we tend to default to that self-critical voice that is not helping us. And we then have this belief that it's going to motivate us. And as, you say, the research is showing that that is completely inaccurate and incorrect

Kristin: 24:40

kind of works just like punishing a child and yelling at them. It kind of works, but at leads to all sorts of unnecessary, suffering and setbacks that don't need to be there. It's more effective if you spoil a child that doesn't work either. If you just say, oh, that's fine. Do whatever you want, sweetie. That's not helpful either. Right. What's helpful is clear, kind, firm, supportive with ourselves or with others.

CODY: 25:05

the kind of self-compassion that you're talking about. Say, we failed on something and then we're feeling bad and we tell ourselves it's okay. You know, pat ourselves on the back. or if we're, we're overweight, we wanna lose weight and we tell ourselves it's okay. I, I accept who I am. What is the thing that is going to help propel me? Is it, trying reflect and consider what is my inner belief? Pull out like some emotion or some experience or some desire. What is the force that's positive, that can help propel us towards accomplishing our goals? Because surely it's not just being compassionate and telling ourselves that we love ourselves. Is there something deeper below that?

Kristin: 25:43

why do you want to lose the weight? Right? So if you want to lose weight so you'll feel good in your body. Right, Or so you feel healthier or because maybe you do wanna like what you see in the mirror. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, some people may decide, actually society tells me I should look a certain way. I don't, I don't buy that. it's not gonna make me happy. Then you may reject those messages, but maybe you do wanna look a certain way, so you're doing it again, not because you're inadequate or worthless if you don't. the bottom line is we care about ourselves and we can accept our humanity flaws and all as worthy, worthy of love, just like every other creature on this planet. but if it'll make you feel better, if it'll, if you really think it'll make you happier, then that's why you do it. Here's the thing is, how are you gonna get there? if you're cold and you're harsh, it's gonna probably work against you. But if you're supportive, just think like Ted Lasso, someone like that, you know, or Obiwan Kenobi or any of these figures of this really wise, kind mentor who really, wants you to achieve your goals, then you aren't gonna let yourself slide because that wouldn't be kind.

CODY: 26:53

and so One way of being kind and having that and propelling us is thinking about the reasons that we wish to obtain this goal. Now that kind of stems to a form of mindfulness in that we also need to be mindful of what it is that we truly want, and then I. Kind of combine that with self-compassion is there a specific meditation? Is there, like, I know we can end up having an experience with somebody, we can have a conversation with somebody. I know I watched a documentary one time on Paleo and then I was full in on, on paleo diet for a period of time. So we end up having experiences, and then those experiences give us that sort of muscle energy where it. Propels us to where we want to go What kind of exercises or thoughts do you recommend that people try as a means of creating that positive emotional energy for change?

Kristin: 27:45

Yeah, so I've got a whole, bunch of practices. So there are three core components of self-compassion. So there's, mindfulness actually is at the foundation of self-compassion because you need to be aware. That you're suffering or aware that there's some unhealthy behavior. You have to have your eyes open, so to speak, in order to give yourself compassion. there's a sense of common humanity, which you mentioned framing, that, we're all imperfect and we're all part of this larger whole. And then there's kindness, which is the encouragement and the care. And so they take different forms depending on. what your goal is, and you can actually use the three components, just what we call a self-compassion break, to call them in on your situation. So for instance, when it's about motivating yourself, they manifest as encouraging wise vision. Kindness is encouraging. Common humanity gives you wisdom. We all learn from our mistakes and mindfulness gives you vision. What's my goal? Where do I wanna go, and why? So you can actually do a self-compassion break where you just bring in what is my vision for myself, you know what's true for me? Just check in. and then the wisdom. Okay, well what can I learn from this situation? Where, did I maybe not reach my goals in the past? What might I learn from it? Again, engaging that learning and growth orientation as opposed to I should have gotten it right. I'm crap if I don't. And then the encouragement is, I believe in you. How can I help? we can do this, or, you know. What needs to happen in order for it to take place. So that encouraging wise vision can, you can bring that in. but it may look very different if your goal is to accept yourself. maybe you're an athlete, you know, and you just fail to race. And what you really need right now is just acceptance. You don't wanna, you know, you just wanna deal with it. Well, that manifests as, loving, connected presence, right? You're just present with the pain of it. You're just kind of with it. Wow, that really hurt. Uh, you feel connected, remembering that it's not, you're not the only one that it's happened to. This is part of the human experience. And then you're loving in the sense of kind of more soothing and nurturing towards yourself. there's, actually four different forms it takes you. Could I go into that and my book for your self-compassion. But a self-compassion break, it's like, how do you, how do you bake a self-compassion cookie? You do one part mindfulness bring mindfulness in, which is about accepting and seeing clearly one part common humanity. Remembering that you aren't alone and also that you're human being and that mistakes is, and messiness is how. Life happens for human beings. And then the kindness, and that's an easy one. You can think, what would I say or do for a really good friend I cared about in the same situation? Or what would some ideally compassionate and kind person probably say to me right now? We can also imagine that way, and if you bring in those three components, you're actually engendering a self-compassionate mind state. You don't have to meditate. Meditation helps. But our research shows that it doesn't matter whether you do something like a self-compassion break, or you sit down and meditate for 20 minutes in the morning, you know, it's important that you do practice because as I say, evolutionarily, our habit is more towards self-criticism, but it doesn't matter if you do it formally or informally during the day.

CODY: 31:00

Have you done any research to look at how often are people aware that they're even having self-critical thoughts? Because the thoughts typically stem from emotions. And so we might be feeling a negative way about ourself, but we don't often consciously realize it until we're too anxious or too depressed. I.

Kristin: 31:21

Yeah, that's, a really good question. I actually haven't personally, I'm sure someone out there, has, in terms of done research on how often that happens, but I can tell you just from teaching a lot of people about self-compassion. Now, of course, by the time they get to me. They're often aware that they're self-critical. That's why they might take a workshop with me. But I think many, many people, as you say, aren't And I think going back to internal family systems, has a really useful way of thinking about this. So we have different parts of ourself and they all play a role. We have a self-critical part who's really trying to help us and keep us in line and ward off dangers. We have a compassionate part. We have a part where we hide from ourselves, we have parts that are, that hide themselves. They're called exiles because we think it's too difficult to feel this. We tuck that little part of ourselves away. So we have all these parts, but what happens is sometimes we become blended with a part. So we come blended with the self critic, for instance. So when we're blended with the self-critic, there's no perspective from which to say, oh, I'm being really self-critical. Maybe I should change the way I'm talking to myself. We're like, we're blended with this part of ourselves. So all we see is from the perspective of the self-critic, I'm so horrible. I need to change. I'm no good. People are gonna reject me. Right. So basically what we need, that's where we need mindfulness because mindfulness is what allows us to become unblended or disentangled from our negative thoughts and emotions. Without mindfulness or awareness, you really, you, you can't start That's why it actually is the foundation of self-compassion because if there's no awareness that you're suffering it seems strange that you aren't aware that you're suffering. So you're suffering and you're lost in the suffering, but there's no awareness that you can step back and say, well, I'm having a real hard time. Hmm, I wonder I could help myself in this moment, because you're just lost in it. so you need the space. The space is what mindfulness gives you that stepping back, the mindset shift. But space is not enough. You also need the warmth. The warmth is part of the heart. The warmth says this, caring warmth, what can I do to help? How can I best help myself in the moment? So I will be well. And then you also need the connectedness. And this goes back to, you know, our egos. We have these egos. We think we're separate. We think we're, separate conscious beings that are separate from the rest of the world. But this is really just a feature of the default mode network. It creates a sense of self that projects it in the past, in the future, and it looks for problems, but we aren't nearly as separate as we think we are. Right. We're, we're continually influenced. By everything. We are part of a larger whole. We act much less control over things than we think we do. So this illusion of a separate ego, with compassion, remembering that that is an illusion, remembering that we aren't alone, remembering that this is the shared human experience, and that at a fundamental level we are connected to others, that's also really key. So you need space, warmth, and connectedness.

CODY: 34:32

I grew up had a lot of childhood trauma and I, what was so self-critical to myself growing up and all the businesses, it was motivated by fear and then, then being critical of myself, and that was kind of almost never ending. And now I've at a point where anytime I feel a negative emotion, it didn't, it wasn't instant, right? It wasn't meditating. even it took meditating, over many years before I started to have this level of awareness that would arise whenever I was feeling a negative emotion. And then it would. It'll allow me to pause and reflect and ask, wait, what is this? And one of the greatest perspective shifts I've ever had was, I think partly from letting go by David Hawkins on what he recommended is, and I think this also touches on, internal family systems, which is kind of having a conversation with yourself. And breaking down. Okay. I'm, feeling upset right now, and what I like to do is I imagine that that Disney or that Pixar movie with all the little characters as emotions, and then I'll imagine having the, you know, the anger or frustration to walk in and anger and sadness that we sit on a couch and then we just have a conversation with each other and. we share the different parts of myself will share how it's feeling and then the other parts will talk. And then it allows me in some ways to kind of quell this emotion because it's often we feel this negative emotion, but it's actually there. It's trying to help us. And when we, have that perspective that it's there to help us, we can then validate that internal feeling and then it's able to kind of walk out and it's okay. And it doesn't bother us as much anymore.

Kristin: 36:09

Exactly. And believe it or not, we need to do that with our self critical part. Oftentimes people think that the way to self-compassion is by getting rid of the inner critic. It's not. It's by befriending the inner critic. So, for instance, I, I teach a, a practice called Compassionate Motivation, where what you do is you get in touch with something that you usually criticize yourself for, that you'd like to change, like maybe a behavior that you'd like to change. And then you ask, well, how is the inner critic trying to help me or keep me safe? Even if it's actually not working very well, what's it trying to do for me? And then once you get that, oh, I see my inner critic is trying to help. Well, thank you. I appreciate your efforts. Then that part of ourselves can relax a little bit. It feels heard, feels acknowledged, and usually the compassionate part of our ourself. And the inner critic want the same thing, both parts of ourself. we both wanna be healthy and well and not be in danger. all parts of ourselves at the core wanna be safe. and then so once you get on the same page, so to speak, then you can just reframe the messages in those in ways that's more helpful and constructive. And they're much easier to listen to and much easier to take in.

CODY: 37:21

It sounds like a form of, is there a form of, of mental visualization? so I recently interviewed, Gabrielle Oettingen, who's a professor in New York, and she has this acronym called WOOP that stands for Wish, outcome, obstacle and Plan. And it's a evidence-based kind of motivational strategy to help visualize a future scenario. And help make sure that you're more likely to accomplish your dream or your goal. Is there any similar acronym or exercise that you can give to people who are, who want to have some kind of quick exercise to understand this negative emotion or self-critical voice.

Kristin: 37:58

Right. So, I have lots of practices. I, I don't, I'm not big on acronyms personally. I know people love acronyms, but the self-compassion break, so the encouraging wise vision, you know, have, have the vision of what it is you want for yourself. Bring in the wisdom, which is to, how can I learn from the past? Where am I going? And then what can I say to really encourage myself? So that type of thing is a very easy practice again. Mindfulness, common humanity and kindness. Three parts, you might say, three steps. They may look a little bit differently depending on what the goal you're trying to achieve. As I said before. on my website, self-compassion dot org, I have a providing self-compassion break, a motivating self-compassion break, a tender accepting one, and, uh oh, a fierce one, a protective one. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is to draw boundary or say no, or speak up for yourself. that's also a really huge part of self-compassion. oftentimes people. If they say yes to others because they want others to like them 'cause they feel they don't have worth unless they're helping others or, um, they're afraid to stand up and say no. and so big part of self-compassion is calling on this fierce inner warrior and saying, no, I count too. My needs count too. My time's important too. I would love to help, but I'm sorry I can't, all that's, a big part of self-compassion. So I've got little practices for that as well. That's called brave, empowered clarity.

CODY: 39:25

hmm.

Kristin: 39:25

Clarity, mindful gives you, gives you clarity that's not okay. Um, common humanity actually helps us feel empowered when we don't feel so isolated, alone. And kindness is courageous and brave when it comes to having to protect ourselves.

CODY: 39:39

on that, point of, shared humanity. I think we're now living in a society where we increasingly find ourselves wanting to interact less with people or, at least the younger generations. like the little bit of angst that we feel when we have to sit in a car. And, I was recently able to drive driverless taxi. And then my friend noted, ah, this is so much better than having to interact with an Uber driver or say you order delivery through a food app. We, end up removing all these, these small interactions throughout the day. And I'm curious if you think this plays into this increase in isolation and loneliness and whether this makes compassion, any form more difficult.

Kristin: 40:15

Yeah, I mean it's really, Amazing how quickly things are changing that way. The sense of isolation, I mean, all the data shows very clearly. This is the big mental health crisis right now, is that sense of being isolated and alone. And it makes it much harder to be compassionate now. I mean, ultimately the sense of connectedness is an inside job because you can be with people and feel isolated or you can be alone and feel connected. So it's not. Actually dependent on physical interaction, but it certainly helps. So if you're already feeling isolated mentally and you've got nothing to bring you out of your bubble by talking to another person, you know, you aren't, no way to kind of say, oh, this person has another perspective, or, I see I, I share the similarity with this person. Then it just makes it even more difficult. I think both are needed. I think. If more in-person interaction is really helpful. But we also have to make this mental mind shift the sense of self of separation. this illusion that, somewhere we're completely different from other people. We have nothing in common with other people. I mean, you know, what's going on in your mind is different than what's going on in, in my mind. That is true. There are differences. But is the awareness in which, what's going on in your mind arising different than my awareness? Probably not. something's as fundamental as being aware that's something that we both share. And if you start reframing it that way, it's like, oh wow. Okay. Yeah. We're both, we're human beings who are aware, who feel, who have fear, who, you know, have families. All this stuff. There's so much that connects us.

CODY: 41:55

that partly reminds me a little bit of, Jungian, or Carl Jung psychology where he has a description of the ego and the soul and just from what I recall is that. as he noted that as people tend to get older, if they're ruled by their ego, then they tend to be dull and just this low grade unhappiness, whereas the people who let their soul kind of guide them in that, more of a, of say spiritual is that, that you feel more connected spiritually. It's interesting how that is also associated with that feeling of shared humanity, of connectedness to others.

Kristin: 42:30

Well, exactly. I mean, that's not by accident. I did learn about self-compassion from Thich Nhat Hanh, who was a Zen Buddhist teacher, and he actually talked about it. He didn't use the word shared humanity. He talked about intervene. The idea that we are all part of this larger whole, and the, that the sense that we're totally separate and isolated. it's not like that's not true. from one point of view, we are separate. We do have unique experiences, but from another point of view, from the larger kind of bird's eye point of view, we're all part of this unfolding. Thing called human life together. And so the ability to switch is key to self-compassion and self-compassion, although it's, you don't have to think of it as a spiritual practice. You can just think of it as a psychological practice. There's lots of scientific data to support its efficacy. But at the end of the day, anytime you go beyond your limited sense of separate small self, you're in the realm of spirituality. Actually, Dan Siegel defines spirituality that way, and they really liked that definition of spirituality as going beyond the sense of separate self or the small self, and that is what you're doing with self-compassion, ironically. By turning inward and accepting flaws and pain and all that all the, the challenges of human life, you're transcending your small sense of self and you're feeling connected to others. And so it's a spiritual practice as well as a psychological one.

CODY: 43:57

Yeah, and it's really fascinating. there was some guy that was giving talk one time. it was an astronaut at NASA actually. And in, in maybe. A quarter of the way in he, he announced to everybody, sorry, I didn't get enough sleep last night. I might not remember all the words. so bear with me. And in that moment I thought, you know, I wasn't, I didn't think anything was wrong. I didn't question if you didn't have enough sleep or that you weren't saying it correctly. But now I'm gonna be pinpoint looking. For how you are defective in that moment. And what that taught me in, more or less everybody else in the room, is that he was being self-critical of himself to the degree that he felt other people were judging him. So he needed to take a step out and announce to everybody why he might be this way. And when we're not self-critical or we can recognize that we're able to kind of like recognize, accept it, but then. It also gives us more confidence to, to go about and have these experiences in the world.

Kristin: 44:54

Yeah, absolutely. Well, especially because it's okay to make mistakes. When you have that freedom. Obviously you don't want to make mistakes. You do your best to try to avoid mistakes. That's just logical. But when you know that it's okay to make mistakes. And that your worth is in contingent on getting it right. Then that gives you tremendous self-confidence risk-taking ability, grit again, growth orientation. Jack Kornfield said, the point is not to perfect ourselves, but to perfect our love. That's kind of the compassionate mess idea, right? So obviously we don't wanna be a mess and we're gonna do whatever we can not to be a mess. But when we are a mess, and we will be because we're human beings and the nature of life is messy. Even the people who've got everything together eventually get old and sick and die, right? That is a human experience. If your goal becomes less about getting it right and more focused on how can I open my heart to this? How can I be supportive toward myself and others? How can I bring in some care, some connectedness, some warmth, some love? Then when that becomes your primary goal, it's amazing how it changes things because then making a mistake, oh, that's just part of the game. That's how we learn. Not a big deal. I'll just get back up on that horse again and try again. No, no biggie.

CODY: 46:13

Yeah. and every time I have an interview where I think it went horribly wrong, I, I have one exercise that I try to default to, which is the, 10, 10, 10 exercise where you ask yourself, is that person or anybody else gonna care like 10 hours from now, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 months? And it helps to put in perspective the fact that. This other person, and probably other people who are listening are probably not gonna see that mistake and they're probably not gonna care as much because at the end of the day, we're all more concerned about our own individual selves.

Kristin: 46:47

Yeah. That, that's, that's a good way to put things in perspective. Is it as catastrophic as I think it is? Yeah.

CODY: 46:53

Hmm.

Kristin: 46:54

so from one of the things that I would do, is what if I had a good friend? That I cared about, who made that mistake? What would I, would I like them less? Would I, you know, think they're horrible people? No, what would I say to that person? And probably say something like, Hey, maybe had a little bit of an off day. It's okay. It happens, which is true, and it's not that big of a deal.

CODY: 47:16

so I'm presently in a online cohort course by every dot to which is a great newsletter, subscription service that has psychologists, psychiatrists, and a lot of, psychology focused. And recently they created a course and that they're having a, a first kind of graduates go through it. And it's about how to use chat GPT for, Mental wellbeing and health and it's fascinating. I'm sure you perhaps read some people who have been able to insert their journals and then they're able to have discussions with ChatGPT. And I've even found myself doing it where I go on a walk and I use the audio function of the app and I'm able to have a conversation with it and I can ask it to be a mental health coach or a psychiatrist. And I find it. Even though I know I'm talking to a robot, going back, even in the, early studies in the seventies when they first had people talking to a robot, is it, they felt better. And I'm curious if you've had any interactions with any of the AI systems or have any thoughts on how it might play a role in mental health in the future.

Kristin: 48:18

Well, I haven't e exactly, although I had. You know, asked about self-compassion and they have it right?'cause there's so much out there on the web. So the training models are good ones. It makes complete sense to me, right? Because if you think about it, so the talk in our heads, the talk we say to ourselves is just talk as well. And so the talk that we get from an ai, it maybe it's not coming from a living being, but we're interpreting it when we hear these words, they're resonating in our awareness and our consciousness, and they can also be really helpful. I think they'll probably be a big feature and having, and helpful. AI voice would be like a good therapist. So what we're finding from the research is that one of the outcomes of good therapy is self-compassion, because a therapist models kind of understanding wise, compassionate ways of relating to a person's suffering that become internalized by the client, and that that internalization, you might say, is self-compassion. So it makes sense that if AI could model that, that would be helpful. you know, again, you just wanna make, sure there's some guardrails on it because if someone programmed that AI to start calling you name seeking, it's going to, uh, motivate you. But the thing is you wouldn't do that. Isn't that interesting? People really think it's so effective with themselves. Do we really think the most effective AI chat bot would say, you're a piece of crap, you better get it right. Or else, no, we know that wouldn't be effective. And yet somehow we think that works with ourself and so we can maybe model it more easily. So just for instance, thinking, how would I say this to a friend is a really effective way to think of what would be the most, effective language to use for oneself. AI in some ways isn't that different, right? it's modeling effective language,

CODY: 50:10

and so to kind of encompass most of it is that there's a wide array of exercises that we can do to have more self-compassion and to teach ourself to even be mindful that hey, we're being, I'm being self-critical to myself right now. And it could be exercises like 10, 10, 10, or it could be having the as if you're talking to a friend and, so many more, right.

Kristin: 50:33

Yeah, we, so I developed with my colleague Chris Groomer, the Mindful Self-Compassion Program, and there are dozens of various exercises. That we've developed to help people, practice self-compassion. And again, it's not rocket science. You can think of your own as well. For instance, one really effective way to practice self-compassion is through physical touch. And that is because evolutionarily, the care system is activated through touch. Now, normally it's touched with others, you know, group members, family members, loved ones. But the body doesn't know the difference. So if you put your own hand on your heart, it lowers cortisol and increases heart rate variability the same way if someone puts a hand on your shoulder, right? So physical touch, whatever works for you as a way of comforting and soothing yourself, can immediately make you feel supported. allows you to be present because you're like with yourself, literally by touching yourself gives you some awareness, gives you some warmth. So it's a very easy way to practice self-compassion.

CODY: 51:33

Right in the moment, it feels kind of, uh. Almost woowoo to, to be able to tell yourself, like, like hug yourself. I know that there is a form of psychology that specifically touches on that subject, but it really understates just how powerful touch is, even when we're feeling alone and afraid to try and have that self-compassion. And I think to combine that with maybe like a, self hug or something

Kristin: 52:00

Yes, self hug, hands on heart. we really encourage people to find what works for you personally. Some people cradling the face. Works likely. And I mean, you created your face like that reminds 'em of being a child. but it cuts straight through what the mind's saying.'cause think about it, you know, the first few years of life, the primary way compassion and care is communicated between infants and parents is to touch before babies have language. So our bodies are designed for it, our physiology is designed for it. And it does actually, lots of research shows that it interacts with the nervous system. So go for it. and someone's looking, you can just hold your own hand or hold, you know, fold your arms. No one needs to know you can do it. You can do it on the sly.

CODY: 52:42

And so I know many years ago you started MBSR, which is short for mindfulness based stress reduction as a course. Can you tell us more about that and where people might go to find more information?

Kristin: 52:56

that's actually not my work. That's the work of Jon Kabat-Zinn, mindfulness based stress reduction. So I started something called MSC, all these acronyms. It's like alphabet soup. mindful Self-Compassion is a program that has a mindfulness foundation, but adds in a lot of. Explicit self-compassion practices. And if you wanna find out more about that, you can go to the center for Mindful Self-compassion. You can just Google that. Or if you go to my website, self-compassion dot org, um, you can take the scale I created to measure self-compassion. I've got tons of free practices, and there's also a link there to the center for mindful self-compassion. So it made it really easy actually, if you just Google self-compassion, you'll find me because I got in early in the Google SEO search engine. I've been doing this for 20 years now, so just Google self-compassion and you'll find my website and then that's a really good place to start.

CODY: 53:48

and again, I absolutely loved your book. I would recommend it to anybody seeking to, to understand themselves more, to be able to lower that critical voice and to have just more self-compassion so that they can live a happier and more fulfilled life. So thank you for being on the podcast, Kristin. I really appreciate it.

Kristin: 54:06

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.